Spike Camp

Hunting with Weatherby => Elk => Topic started by: OldFashionedDad on November 09, 2014, 01:21:57 PM

Title: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: OldFashionedDad on November 09, 2014, 01:21:57 PM
I am going on a hunt next fall for Deer and Elk in the mountains of Colorado.  I am using a 257. Weatherby Mag and wanted opinions on hand loads.  I am an experienced loader and will ladder load with H4381 or IMR4381 to find my most accurate.  I know that the 257 isn't optimal for Elk but it is what I have and I am extremely accurate and confident with it.  I also will most likely be taking clean shots under 300 yards.  the question is the bullet.  I know Nosler Partition well and they are manufactured where I live in Central Oregon.  But I am looking for the best possible load for a clean kill on the Elk.  Shot placement aside I am leaning toward Partion in 120gr or Swift A-Frame in 120gr.  I am also open to other suggestions.

Thanks,
Jeff
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: badsection on November 09, 2014, 01:41:16 PM
Since shot placement and angle of that shot come into it, I`d take whichever is most accurate. Both are good bullets.  If I had only my 257 WBY for elk, I`d stick with the 100gr. TSX in mine as it`s the most accurate by far. Welcome to the nation   :)
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: OldFashionedDad on November 09, 2014, 01:48:01 PM
I have never used the  Barnes TSX but have heard great things. Sierra Reloading guide shows 100gr at  2720 ft. Lbs. and 3500 Velocity, right on par with the 120gr.  Thank you for the advice.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: OldFashionedDad on November 09, 2014, 01:53:54 PM
badsection, what do you think about the TSX vs the TTSX and would it be beneficial to go to 115gr?
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: curthopson on November 09, 2014, 02:14:08 PM
Both bullets are favorites of mine. I have recovered both partitions and a-frames from animals, and the weight-retention on the partitions is routinely in the 70s and on the Swift a-frame it is mid 90s. I lean toward the Swift product if accuracy is equal. Both will work great for you. Have fun. Curt.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: badsection on November 09, 2014, 02:26:09 PM
Haven`t had great luck with the heavier Barnes bullets in my 257. I did take a 200lb. hog with the 100gr. TSX and it performed as advertised. The only TTSX I`ve tried is the 80gr. version.  :)
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: OldFashionedDad on November 09, 2014, 02:36:31 PM
Let me hear all the opinions, luckily I have plenty of brass and powder.  Looks like I will have to load up a bunch of different types and spend some quality time on the bench.  Damn I hate shooting, it's so stressful :)
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: ccc23454 on November 09, 2014, 03:23:24 PM
I have shot a bunch of deer with the 120 partitions and took rifle as a back up on a elk hunt with complete confidence.  I believe either bullet will do what your looking for I just always used the partitions because of price. buy the "blems" for under $20 and practice with same bullets I am going to hunt with and builds confidence. both bullets are among toughest and best lead bullets ever made so don't matter what you choose as they will work!

c
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: Chris on November 10, 2014, 02:14:32 AM
When I was at the NRA convention in Indianapolis the owner of swift said he uses the 100 grain a-frame. He said the elk don't know you are using 20 grains less. Never hunted elk before I though so my comments shouldn't be taken as the gospel.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: zonie on November 10, 2014, 09:01:47 AM
  Curt is correct i'll add think of Swift bullets as heavier constructed Noslers,  similar  in design with some differences.    A-Frames have a bonded nose section and uses pure lead and copper.  These can be  advantages in some scenario.    Anytime you harden things like lead and copper it can fracture and lose weight given extreme impacts.   Softer pure lead and copper has a tendency of flowing or mushing back for lack of a better term before fracturing.  A-frame front sections are bonded Noslers are not.  I've had partitions grenade and completely  come apart, and more than a few times lose the nose section finding only the rear section inside the elk in different places.  The Scirocco's on the other hand are basically a variation of Accubonds and IMO slightly better construction due to the pure copper jacket.   The downside with 25 caliber Sciroccos is they are only 100 grain whereas 25 cal accubonds are 110 grain.   I wasn't all that impressed with 110 grain accubonds on elk this year 3 to 4 inch entry hold,  thru a rib,  bullet came apart and no exit although the cow elk dropped right there.  Too bad Speer dropped TBBC bullets plus I'm not sure if  they made a 25 cal anyway.  Federal has a slight incarnation of the TBBC called Trophy bonded  tip,  which is loaded ammo and not in calibers less than 270.  TBBC were really good bullets  (trophy bonded bear claw ).   If I were going to use the 257 again on any elk it would either be Swift A-frames 120 or Barnes Tsx 115's .   Deer lighter bullets  are  not as important, but elk think driving bullets as deep as possible and breaking everything in the bullets path,  forget these bullets that fragment and come apart you need the best possible controlled expansion bullets that shoot well in your rifle. 
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: OldFashionedDad on November 10, 2014, 05:53:47 PM
Thank you everyone for your opinion's I was already leaning towards the 120gr A-Frame but I will now compare it with the 115gr TSX.  Accuracy at 300 yds will decide because of the the perceived limitations of the 257 with game the size of elk.  I am hoping I have the accuracy I need with the A-Frame because I appreciate the weight retention that Curt was referring to.  I am really dialed in with the 115gr Nosler Balistic tip that I have harvested several deer with I am just looking for the best for a clean kill on an Elk.  Eventually I will invest in a larger caliber but for now I am extremely comfortable with my 257 Weatherby, what a beautiful flat shooting rifle. 
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: galamb on November 10, 2014, 07:03:46 PM
I would second the A-frames over the the partitions.

I used to use partitions on Moose and found many "missing tips" (totally separated) with recovered bullets.

Switched to the A-frames 20'ish years ago - all recovered bullets show no sign of separation.

While both did the job I trust the Swifts just a touch more in the event of a less than perfect shot - so they get my vote if you can get them to fly right.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: purplefox66 on November 10, 2014, 07:40:33 PM
i have loaded for 5-6 different 257s and all have shoot 1/2' or less @100.00 yards. it is a load i found on the side of a bottle rl22  and i have done this load with with most of the major 100gr bullets. here is my all time favorite load for the 257wby.

federal 215
100gr barns tsx or ttsx
 74gr alliant rl22
wby brass,
I know this is over most books but this load is way more accurate than any other other load i have shoot in my 257s
i have done this with both mark vs and vanguards.
case life was around 6-7 loads. I had so much fun shooting this combo. Off hand at the city range thy have a ram at 210 yrds that i could hit all day long. My very first 257wby a mark v sporter all i had to do is point the barrel in the general direction and squeez the trigger and score a hit. In the short time i had this rifle i must of shot 600-800 rounds out of it and it was still driving tacks. Like a fool i traded it off for a 378wby. That is another story.
Good luck and welcome to the nation.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: WA Mtnhunter on November 10, 2014, 11:23:36 PM
Not sure I would use any .25 caliber rifle as an elk rifle.  Plenty of nimrods will disagree, but elk rifles start at .277 bore by most informed and experienced opinions.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: weatherbyman22 on November 11, 2014, 07:57:36 AM
I don't think anyone on here would consider a 257 an optimal elk rifle, but if it's all you got I wouldn't hesitate with good bullet selection and of course the always most important, shot placement! Let's not forget that Roy has taken down a Rhino with a 257! I would also go with the Swift or the 115 TSX in 257, not saying the partition isn't great, but being the small caliber I would, like others have already mentioned, want the absolute best weight retention.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: Rigger28 on November 11, 2014, 08:06:09 AM
120 grain Speer Grand Slam.......
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: curthopson on November 11, 2014, 08:54:53 AM
Great topic. I always believed that elk rifles start at 30 caliber with .338 being just perfect. My 13-year-old son has helped me rethink this with his success this year. He has killed an antelope buck and a mule deer buck with heart shots, and a spike elk with a double lung shot and all three fell over stone dead within 3 steps. The elk humped up and lowered his head before tipping over, the other two took 2-3 steps and collapsed. All of this was done with an 80gr Hornady GMX bullet at around 3400fps. The elk was 115yds and the pronghorh 298 and deer 323. I couldn't have made three cleaner kills with my 416 Weatherby and a 300gr bullet. He has made a believer out of me. Premium bullets really can be trusted even if they are very small. Food for thought. Curt.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: zonie on November 11, 2014, 09:49:31 AM
I have friends and their kids boy's and girls who started  out with 243's on elk.  They drop them just as dead as the larger calibers.  The bullets they are using are premium types and shots are not terribly far.  I'm not a fan of using a 243 on elk and the 257 wouldn't be my first for fifth choice, but both will work in the right hands that's for sure.   Normally I use a 270 win or one of our 30 cal's,    but this year I felt like something different.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: badsection on November 11, 2014, 10:14:58 AM
Assuming this is a guided elk hunt, a new Vanguard in 300 WBY would not be a large percentage of the cost.   ;D
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: OldFashionedDad on November 11, 2014, 11:22:15 AM
badsection it is not a guided Elk Hunt but it might as well be my father private access to a 50,000 acre ranch that he has hunted with the owner for years.  As I have 4 little kids I could never afford a guided trip.
Not sure I would use any .25 caliber rifle as an elk rifle.  Plenty of nimrods will disagree, but elk rifles start at .277 bore by most informed and experienced opinions.
  Shot placement is key and I am highly accurate and confident with my 257, whether I am a nimrod or not a friend of mine is a professional guide and on the board of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and he has harvested elk with a 257 WBY so I am not going to lose any sleep over it.  As I originally stated I understand it is not optimal but I will only take well placed shots under 300yds so I am confident that 2729 Ft. lbs. with 3200 velocity will do the job with the right bullet, hence the originally stated question.   A new rifle is not in the cards and I am not going to borrow a rifle that I am not as accurate and confident with as I am my 257.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: OldFashionedDad on November 11, 2014, 11:37:57 AM
Great topic. I always believed that elk rifles start at 30 caliber with .338 being just perfect. My 13-year-old son has helped me rethink this with his success this year. He has killed an antelope buck and a mule deer buck with heart shots, and a spike elk with a double lung shot and all three fell over stone dead within 3 steps. The elk humped up and lowered his head before tipping over, the other two took 2-3 steps and collapsed. All of this was done with an 80gr Hornady GMX bullet at around 3400fps. The elk was 115yds and the pronghorh 298 and deer 323. I couldn't have made three cleaner kills with my 416 Weatherby and a 300gr bullet. He has made a believer out of me. Premium bullets really can be trusted even if they are very small. Food for thought. Curt.

Curt my thoughts exactly, thank you for the advice and open mind.  I will never purposely cause cruelty to these beautiful animals we hunt.  I firmly believe in proper conservation and herd management over hunting. Any nimrod can go out and take potshots at animals.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: curthopson on November 11, 2014, 12:06:32 PM
Best wishes for a great hunt. Please post your hunt results on this thread when you return so we can all share the fun. Curt.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: OldFashionedDad on November 11, 2014, 01:46:34 PM
Thank you Curt I will, hopefully I will have some pics to post.  It's not till next fall but I am excited and hopeful.  5 out do 6 guys got a deer this year but only 3 got an Elk.  Knowing my dad he will have the  game  tracked before we go.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: badsection on November 11, 2014, 01:49:18 PM
Good luck!   :)
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: honkerhitter on February 13, 2015, 07:19:27 AM
Hope you keep us posted on how the hunt goes.. FWIW my brother in law has hunted with the .257 bee for 15 yrs he has a very accurate load using retumbo and the 117 gr Seirra .  He's take 3 elk , 3-4 moose , and a number of deer both mule and whiteys.  He has been quite happy with the performance of the 117 gr,  this in itself would give me the confidence to use the 120 gr PT without worry. Again the swift may be more of a good thing although I have not personally used them as they are not as readily available here north of the 49th.
 I'm also a father of four youngens , I know what you mean about guided hunts and new equipment, in my house hold it would be pretty selfish to buy my self a new rifle for a single hunt . 
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: Skeezix on December 01, 2015, 06:45:07 PM
I usually choose the Swift A-frame over the Nosler Partition because the point isn't damaged nearly as much in the magazine by recoil, and the forward section of the bullet is bonded and more heavily constructed, resulting in a higher percentage of retained weight.  And I'd definitely go with the 120 grain.

I've used the 100gr Barnes TTSX loaded pretty hot with Ramshot Magnum in a rather long-throated Ruger No. 1 in .25-06 and getting 3395 avg fps.  That load blows right through pronghorn and 300+ lb northern Missouri whitetails at about any angle leaving good blood trails, if you need 'em.  It'll go lengthwise through a coyote or feral dog with a chest-on or Texas heart shot.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: Brobones on March 24, 2016, 12:35:40 PM
 120 grain Speer hot core or grand slam will work well for you.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: buffybr on March 25, 2016, 12:22:38 PM
Since this thread was started two falls ago for a hunt that was going to take place last fall, it would be interesting to hear the outcome of that hunt.

As for his original question, I believe that either a 120 gr partition or a 120 grain A-frame would certainly kill an elk IF it was put into the right place. 

The quickest kill that I've ever made on a bull elk was from a 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullet from my .257 Ackley.  The bullet went in just behind the bull's shoulder, hit a rib, and literally exploded inside his chest cavity.  He simply collapsed dead where he was standing.

One of my friends only has a .25-06, shoots only factory non-premium bullets, and has killed quite a few elk.  Again, bullet placement is the key.

As to the question about the Barnes TSX vs TTSX bullets, the last bull elk that I killed was with a 168 gr Barnes TTSX bullet, the bull before that was killed with a 168 gr TSX bullet.  Both were one shot DRT kills from my .300 Weatherby, which I consider as my ultimate elk rifle.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: danno50 on May 01, 2016, 09:58:08 PM
Either the hunt never took place for unforseen reasons, or the hunt had an unsuccessful outcome, or the op's choice of calibers didn't perform as he had expected, or the ammo didn't give the accuracy expected at 300 yds, who knows why he never posted again.  Quote from op "Accuracy at 300 yds will decide because of the the perceived limitations of the 257 with game the size of elk". There aren't any perceived limitations of the 257 Wby at 300 yds, no one in ammo mfg or any professional hunters, or even the Weatherby ballistics chart claim the 257 Wby is a large game cartridge. No one is saying it hasn't been done or can't be done, but not everyone who decides to try it may be as good or fortunate as you. It's like if 10 people say its ok cause i've done it, or I know someone who does it regularly, or I've done it it with a 243, that it gives license to just about anyone who consistently shoots moa on paper to go after elk with the 257. No matter how much confidence you have, things can go wrong. Buck fever, the wind, last minute movement by the game animal(who hasn't used that one) or mis judged distance can all be factors when you get that shot of a lifetime. Instead of asking on the forum, why don't you email an industry guru, or a rifle or ammo mfg company and ask which load you should use in a 257 Wby to go elk hunting. JMO, but I think they would suggest a larger caliber(and the fact that its the only rifle you have should not be enough reason to warrant its use just because someone else has done it) Some guys shoot paper targets for years before they might go on an actual hunt, and having the crosshairs on a live, breathing animal is a lot different from a bullseye on a 100 yd target. The 257 is a great cartridge, and has been credited with some extraordinary results, but the "fact" that it is so flat shooting, carries a tremendous amount of energy(for the bullet weight and mass that it carries), and is very accurate, its limits should not be pushed past its intended use as an all around great medium game cartridge. Maybe my position isn't supported by many, but in the end, the choice is left up to the individual hunter, and the disagreement goes on regardless. Again, JMO on the same 257 for large game subject.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: PARA45 on May 02, 2016, 05:21:22 AM
Well said Danno!
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: HuskyMusky on April 03, 2018, 02:31:59 PM
I'd want the swift, but the nosler is still a quality bullet.

the swift will retain nearly 100% of it's mass, the nosler breaks up.

100gr TSX style bullet, faster and also awesome.
Title: Re: Nosler Partion 120gr vs Swift A-Frame 120gr
Post by: Cbloom20 on April 03, 2018, 08:00:27 PM
I'd want the swift, but the nosler is still a quality bullet.

the swift will retain nearly 100% of it's mass, the nosler breaks up.

While this is true, it's not an accident nor a valid "knock" on the Partition. The Partition is designed to shed up to 40% if it's weight. Which is the front core. By shedding weight, the bullet transfers energy into the target. Partitions are designed to use hydrostatic and hydraulic shock to kill.

A-frames in the other hand are designed to retain 90% of their weight. They're designed with penetration in mind first. This is good for truely tough animals (dangerous game/African animals) or for pushing a less than ideal caliber to its upper limits. Deeper penetration allows for killing by bloodloss, and a better chance of directly impacting something vital.

Bullet (projectile construction) choice and shot placement are what really matters for (ethically) killing game and recovering it. The animals we hunt were once brought down with hand thrown spears. Unless they evolved kevlar, it won't take something special to bring them down. So long as the hunter understands how a bullet was designed to perform, and selects his shots accordingly.