Spike Camp

The New 585HE, Info-

hubel585

The New 585HE, Info-
« on: June 12, 2014, 04:31:08 AM »
Introducing myself and our work..  Ed Hubel from MI.
I am a big bore researcher, gunnut, and wildcatter,
and have posted our work and experiments around the net.
Under the name of the thread, 12ga From Hell
I have worked on 12, 10, 8, 4ga, wildcat 700s and up and
down. And have tested long 28, 24, 20ga cases.
Favorite wildcat that is gaining numbers is the 585 Hubel Express.

Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
A nicely stocked Ruger #1, nice dark grained stock.
It is owned by the poster, ''tankhunter'' on the AR forums.
Built by his smith who has a reamer.
Guys there can get cases from Bertram.



There are 3 barrels of cases in US.. Here is picture of 585HE in
nice stocked Enfield..First one in FL.  First 585HE in TX guy
has it on Y-tube,  Second picture is barrel of cases.
And they are now making another dozen barrels of cases.Ed





We get asked about recoil. Guns are weighted a little, thick pads,
can be ported, use moderate loads, they shoot nice...Moderate/hunting/target
loads still much more energy than 577NE. And can be had without costing a
years pay. We are putting it in a couple of Vanguard/Howa long actions.

Versatility. Most none elephant hunters can use it for  lighter game, for
example, shoot lighter .585 Minie bullets, which load for about 75 cents each,
once you have cases. Great for target fun, hogs, deer,  etc... Cases
last forever. We can load to any power level we need or want.
There are more variety of .585" bullets, jacketed,turned, lead, than any other
caliber over 458.  Here are about a third we have found..
Including some extra long and heavy for whisper, subsonic type load,
with 4000 ft lbs energy. That's huge energy for subsonic cartridge



Asked about using in a #1, And it's perfect case for the Ruger #1.
We got 2 in FBW falling blocks made.
The few #1s ever done in 577, they had to relieve
metal behind the action shoulders that breach block
rests against because of rim. Ours we don't have to and the #1s
extractors I've seen work better with belted case than big rimmed.
Ours holds more powder, cases built for extreme pressures.



Case doesn't need  special made shellholder, number 31 RCBS fits fine.
Dies available now are CH4D, 3 die set, with one inch thread.
It is a straight belted case that holds up to 190gr of doublebase powder.
To bottom of most bullets. It has effiencies of 37+%, where necked cases 
in 50cal trying to get same energy, are about 29%.

The loads tested at high pressures about 65,000 psi, when extracting, the
weight of the bolt after opening pulled cases out. We've fired moderate
loads in singleshots that we mono-blocked barrels into and the cases fall
out after firing. Here is a nice single with 585HE  in it.




Here is picture of first 585HE put in MRC PH. PH mag box feeds the
585HE cases as it comes from mfg. Ed


hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2014, 04:14:06 PM »
We've put some of the 585HE bolt guns in composite and Hogue
stocks, and they are rugged for extreme weather. And they
don't break under heavy loads.

And with their hollow butts very easy to add weight to take up
recoil. If lead and epoxy added to a complete fill of the hollow,
 too much weight, so I found a nice cheap substitute. We started
using rubber coated mouse balls that we have a big pail of.
They are steel with rubber coating, and right weight.
And won't rattle with coating, and we hold them in tight with
a piece of dense foam pressed under butt pad.



 We get asked about how much speed potential we have.  And
we start by mentioning  cases can hold 190-200 gr of ball powder
with the bullets loaded out.long. 200gr settled good  in picture.



And more fun shooting, using 4  black powder substtiute pellets
under a Minie bullet. Nice cloud of aromatic smoke,
Pictured is 4  54cal  pellets under the Minie. Ed



hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2014, 06:49:26 PM »
In a related 585 caliber size we made the 24ga FH, and lengthened 24ga chamber to 3 inches.
The barrel of our 585HE is .585" bore and rifled 24ga bore, are same size. And some of 
58cal Minie bullets available to buy or cast are  .585-.687"  and work in the 24ga case fine.

Now we found a fast, easy way to get 24ga brass cases,  just get 577NE brass and reduce
the rim from .750" to 24ga size of .720" and re-stamp casehead 20ga . Using  3"  577 brass.
We made 24ga chamber for 3" case, brass  fits and the regular 24ga  2.5" plastic works also.

.

Our 585HE  has same overall  loaded length as a 505 Gibbs.
Holds up to 190gr ball powder under bullets...Any gun that can be set up for Gibbs can feed
the 585HE. The long bolt actions work, like Enfield, BBK, Savage, Ruger, MRC PH, etc,
and it is tested in break actions and falling block actions where length is not a factor..

First picture is the 585HE in a NEF we mono-blocked a 585 barrel into.

Second picture is couple cases loaded with CEB solid turned brass bullets.

Third picture is 585 in a FBW falling block action we adapted to fit into one piece stock. Ed

..





...

hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2014, 07:05:32 PM »
.Been busy with 24ga FH and  585HE
and getting 585HE cases made, as many as possible...

We are now working  a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
bore barrels. Main use difference,  24ga FH  easy setup in break
actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.



Picture of  non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
was pulled out, wouldn't stay in tight after pulled. Sabot was a loose fit
in 20ga, though made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE.  A  press in  fit gives
good resistance for good ignition.



Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452"   45cal pistol
 bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders..
With  250 gr bullet in 585HE hot load will go about mach 4.



Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use  rubber
coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being 
too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed




« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 07:32:07 PM by hubel585 »

hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2014, 07:33:28 PM »
WE get asked about whether the 585HE is a DD due to being
over 50 cal, and no it is not, as we applied for and got a
sporting cartridge exemption few years ago.

First picture is base view of cases new and old. On the left is the
4 new ones that come with no headstamp that I stamped,
and the 6 new ones in the middle has a 585 stamp.
We got a barrel full without stamp and guys can wildcat
them and put their own headstamp on..

Second is side view with some in # 31 holders.No special
holders needed. .Notice how uniform belts are on the new
shiny ones. Dark ones are ones I made years ago.

Third is one with  bore rider bullet in with others behind. Maybe make
 a great long range target/hunting cartridge.Like using Barnes bullets
Got a guy setting up one with long heavy barrel for that.

   

   



Cases are made super strong, made in the same factory run as the super
high pressure Cheytac cases. The base of our case is same size ahead of
belt as 408 Cheytac/505 Gibbs bases. Done with same cups and draws,
uses different header, bunter, and sizer. Here is picture of the one we made
and the factory one sectioned showing the strong built inside corners.
These are not old style balloon head junk cases.



Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2014, 09:18:21 PM »
Very interesting.Thanks for sharing.
Roger
Faster horses,younger women,older whiskey,and more money.

eoats

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2014, 02:58:59 PM »
Gorgeous stuff!

I've seen some postings before on other sites and find it impossible not to stare.

hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2014, 04:22:39 PM »
Thankyou both, WE like our fun work.

In the pictures above you see the older first cases I made from Nyati
cases and other cases that were Nyati clones. These were straight basic,
long, untrimed cases, so I could get the longer case we wanted.

We get asked about the process of doing it and here is picture sketch
showing original case, a case with the start of a belt step, and finally
a case after it is swaged and sized. Note the belt diameter ends up the
same as the base diameter of the original brass. These cases we made
years ago was how we got the 585HE started and tested and some guns
done. This process can only work with original cases that have a thick
corner radius to leave plenty of thickness ahead of the belt. In doing this
process with different wildcats we have found cases that wouldn't work.



Ourcases have a diameter that works with regular .700" dia bolt guns, 
without extreme machining on the bolt, as opposed to 577NE and Trex.
Here is picture of our  case held in a Ruger bolt, as an example..



And our case is large enough capacity to get the power, without being an
oversize, soft case. Thicksided  cases relative to size of the case are much
harder to deaw harden the heads and the lower body back up  to proper
strength, because of the extreme annealling needed, in the drawing
and heading operations in the mfg process.
Our cases are made with same cups and draws as the ultra high pressure
Cheytac cases, and our real high pressure tests show they perform with
no extraction problems. We tested 70,000 psi loads.





We have experimented with black powder type of loads and the
Minie bullets, The Minies we use are the ones measuring .585".
Also for reduced loads with lesser amounts of powder we found
that 24ga wads  work perfect in the case, like in this picture.



WE did couple guns in smooth barrel to test  hollowbase Minies.
Found that they work for shot in our case. Holds 3/4 oz of shot.
Put a 24ga card on top and glue it in.



The one setup in the the NEF, with a 585 barrel monoblocked
into it and gun weighted, with thick pad, is the first in TX
and there is video put on ytube by the owner-- URL below--  Ed

www.youtube.com/watch?v=HypaUdwQGAc 








hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2014, 02:41:47 AM »
First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.

If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide

next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed




I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise,  figuring out an
extractor is a  problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed



hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2014, 12:09:42 PM »
Here is  585 FBW falling block with  Hogue Knoxx Compstock.
That stock helps reduce recoil in this lighter gun. Ed



Here is some of the barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
Most of the McGowens profiled and few are straight blanks.
Others from another place in paper wrap are the slow twist and
others are smooth .In back are some of the cases and die sets.



hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2014, 10:37:04 PM »
Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like. Usually
set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
size to 577NE, to the 585 Nyati  with the picture of Ross Seyfreid
shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over,
 to our 585HE the strongest.

The 577NE is an offshoot of the 24 gauge caliber, only they went
eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
cases and black powder,  cases built like shotgun cases, called the
577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases,  with black powder,
then on to drawn brass cases, then to 577 BP Express. then
to 3" cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet of
.570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
diameter ended up at .585". This bore diameter of cartridge guns
and muzzle loaders is real interesting on how they developed
and were used by hunters and military over the years.

Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have a
24ga FH, a little regression to earlier times, taking 577NE brass, and
reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
stamp the cases 24 ga.

For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions,  and finding
reasonable rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, same for 24ga.
The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
a third the cost of  600NE brass, or getting turned case made.

Info about the power in  types of guns  normally set up with 24ga FH,
break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
Now  using the better, heavier 3"  brass we got, we can increase speed
to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
gun, gets us  near  2  1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which
actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
So makes  relatively smaller bore  shotgun. 24ga,  with  458WIN power.
.Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed

hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2014, 05:25:17 AM »
Here is picture of 585HE 100 cases a guy got loaded,
 CEB solid nose bullets, and hollowpoints.
These bullets are  turned solids with wide meplat or wide hollowpoint. .



Here is break action being set up for the 24ga FH. It is done by mono-blocking
in a .585"/24ga barrel. With the 3"  24ga brass case running 35,000 psi,
a  moderate load, with 440gr minie, it gets about same power
as some loads in the 458Win. Ed


« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 05:28:25 AM by hubel585 »

hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2014, 04:15:04 PM »
Here is a different look at 585-458 sabots holding 458cal bullets.
It holds lead as well as jacketed.



Here is a long turned streamlined bullet in our 585.



I do like Enfields to put our 585 in, and one of the reasons is
they have bigger bolt lugs than most, by bigger they have more
cross section where the lug is on the bolt body. And the left lug
is longer forward so as to support the case, after the bolt face is
opened for the bigger case, as the extractor
pushes the case to the left.




Anyone wanting to import barrels, actions, cases, etc into Canada from
here can work through Prophet River Firearms in Lloydminster, AB.

The here being the US, and with our group here, also having
 barrels, dies, cases, and  McGowen with barrels in stock,
CH4D with 585HE dies in stock,  shops with # 31 shellholders.
And later a few retail outlets setup with cases in stock...Ed .

hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2014, 09:42:34 PM »
Another application for our 585 HE is for guys with the 14.5mm
PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places  14.5
cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.

And in a PTRD with almost a  5 foot long barrel  can get 650gr
spitzer bullet to the same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
3 times as much powder. 3300 fps.  Or get a 900gr at 2800.
Great possibilities for fun shooting. And tactical use in a place
where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
steel cases are scarce. A 100 cases do over 2000 reloads.



I  like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns. .
Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
Ruger 77 handle, one on  the right . Something even a novice
like me can do.....



A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
ones in our 24ga FH. The hollowpoint  can range in weight 450gr
to 700gr.. The 24ga FH is nice complement to our
585HE for the shotgun only deer hunters... Ed




hubel585

Re: The New 585HE, Info-
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2014, 03:04:57 AM »
For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds  .451/.452" light
bullets 225 to 300 gr.  A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
but a big bang and satisfaction. That sabot is one made for ML, but
with .452" bullet in it is a real tight fit in brass cases, to stay
in place and give good ignition. A 250 gr bullet would go about
mach 4 with a top load..



Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of  .980" ..The 5th, 6th,
7th blanks on bottom are straight  1.375"  585 regular twist blanks.
One in paper wrapper is slow twist 585 barrel...Ed