African Big Game and the 378

[eford]

I don't have access to the book where Roy Weatherby's hunting of Cape buffalo with the 257 Wby Mag is mentioned, but I wonder what bullet he used in that famous event. Any one know the answer?

[Marishka]

Some articles making reference to the Cape Buffalo hunt.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/ROY+WEATHERBY+--+The+Man+Behind+The+Name.-a077824230

http://weatherbyrifler.com/Download/PDF/ST257.pdf

100 grain bullet

Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNGn4s-4Ubs

High Speed Bullet

June 3rd, 2011, 02:11 PM #13 

lo-pro-hunter

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i have read of Roy weatherby using the 257 on cape buffalo, one shot kill. when a bullet hits a game animal at well over 3000 feet per second it does strang things to that animal, it affects organs and the nervous system shocking the entire chest cavity. the animal is brought down even before blood loss is a factor. at 3600 feet a second + you dont need to hit the heart to stop it the damage radiates away from the bullet path causing damage in all directions(not good thing for meat hunters who dont use neck or head shots)
 watch a you tube video of a 22-250 or 257 hitting a watermenlon or a a 1 gallon jug of coulored water. nottice how violently the fluids are pushed from the path of the bullet? when that happens inside a big game animals chest, its lights out be it a deer, moose or even a cape buffalo. Now if for any reason that happens OUTSIDE of a big game animals chest it is not necessarily lights out and could even get dangerous. With a firm grasp on controlled expansion bullets desigened specifically for the impact velocities expected, well in excess of 3200 feet per second this is not so likely to happen, using the monolithic solids it is impossible. they are capable of penetrating steel plate. if efficiency is the goal use a conventional case, bullet at a conventional speed. race cars and bikes are very efficent at turning gas into power but are not effiecient at turning gas into distance.
June 4th, 2011, 12:21 PM

[wyominghunter]

I saw an article in the most recent edition of Successful Hunter regarding the use of a .338-378 Weatherby on a lion.  The hunter was using a 250 grain TTSX I believe.  Although the hunter did kill the lion, it took 3 shots/hits to do so.  Basically, the impact velocity was so great that it tore the petals off the bullet.  The hunter was disappointed in the performance of the .338-378 on a lion.

Now...I am as much of a Weatherby fan as anyone, but I think this underscores why Weatherby cartridges have a poor reputation in Africa.  I think the typical distances animals are shot in Africa generally result in high impact velocity from most Weatherby cartridges and cause erratic bullet performance.

At longer distances, this is a good thing, which is why "flatter" shooting cartridges like Weatherby calibers are so popular in North America where shots tend to be longer.  I think bigger, heavier, projectiles traveling at slower speeds are just a better choice for the situations in Africa.  I suppose if you load heavier bullets for whatever Weatherby caliber you choose - you would lessen this issue. 

All of these things said, the impression that your PH will have when you remove a Weatherby rifle from the case will most likely be negative - most of them simply do not like Weatherby cartridges.  When my father went to Africa he brought a .300 Weatherby and a .375 H&H.  When he got there his PH told him would just as soon he left the .300 Weatherby in the case and shoot everything with the .375 H&H.  He never pulled the trigger on the .300 Weatherby and killed everything with the .375 H&H. 

About the only .300 magnum that seems to have some acceptance there is the .300 Winchester Mag.  I have seen most people take a .30-06 and .375 H&H for a two gun safari, but I've known several people take only a .300 Winchester for a plains game hunt.     

[Marishka]

Sounds like an issue with the TTSX, perhaps a round nose, like a Hawk, would have been better. Or, factory ammo.

I used the 250 grain Hawk in my .300 on an Alaskan black Bear. The penetration was excellent, bullet expansion was 250% and the weight retention was about 90%.

Again, bullet selection appears the be the problem.

[buffybr]

...  Basically, the impact velocity was so great that it tore the petals off the bullet...

Now...I am as much of a Weatherby fan as anyone, but I think this underscores why Weatherby cartridges have a poor reputation in Africa.  I think the typical distances animals are shot in Africa generally result in high impact velocity from most Weatherby cartridges and cause erratic bullet performance.

At longer distances, this is a good thing, which is why "flatter" shooting cartridges like Weatherby calibers are so popular in North America where shots tend to be longer.  I think bigger, heavier, projectiles traveling at slower speeds are just a better choice for the situations in Africa.  I suppose if you load heavier bullets for whatever Weatherby caliber you choose - you would lessen this issue. 

All of these things said, the impression that your PH will have when you remove a Weatherby rifle from the case will most likely be negative - most of them simply do not like Weatherby cartridges.  When my father went to Africa he brought a .300 Weatherby and a .375 H&H.  When he got there his PH told him would just as soon he left the .300 Weatherby in the case and shoot everything with the .375 H&H.  He never pulled the trigger on the .300 Weatherby and killed everything with the .375 H&H. 

About the only .300 magnum that seems to have some acceptance there is the .300 Winchester Mag...   

Sounds like an issue with the TTSX...

...Again, bullet selection appears to be the problem.

I've shot 25 African, 5 North American, and 3 New Zealand big game animals with TSX or TTSX bullets from my .375 RUM and .300 Weatherby.  All of the African animals were spot and stalk at ranges from 30 yards to 348 yds.  All but 3 of the animals were one shot kills.  Most of the bullets completely passed through the animals.

I took the .375 RUM on 2 trips to Africa, one shooting 300 grain TSX bullets at 2830 fps, and the other shooting 270 gr TSX bullets at 3040 fps.  I took my .300 Weatherby on one African hunt and a New Zealand hunt shooting 168 gr TTSX bullets at 3250 fps.  I also killed one Montana bull elk with that load.  The other North American animals that I shot with my .300 Weatherby were 3 Texas exotics and another Montana bull elk, all shot with 168 gr TSX bullets at 3290 fps.

I only recovered 6 of those bullets, and only 2 of them had broken off a petal.  In both of those cases, the animal was quartering toward me and the bullets hit large upper leg/shoulder bones, and penetrated almost full length of the animals.

I personally believe that many guides don't like Weatherby rifles, because they have had previous clients with brand new Weatherby rifles that they either hadn't shot enough or were afraid to shoot them.  The .300 Winchester doesn't quite have the recoil of the .300 Weatherby, and hunters are more comfortable shooting them.

I've hunted long enough and am comfortable enough with my rifles. handloads, and shooting ability that I don't ask outfitters what rifle or bullets to bring on a hunt, but if they ask, I'll tell them what I am bringing.

[terminator]

Good info Buff.Nice to hear from someone with real life experience.

[NorthWoods1900]

I used Barnes Triple Shocks in my 300 Wby in Namibia, had excellent terminal performance, however the copper fouling was awful. The all around best performance I've had in my 300 Wby and 340 Wby were with Nosler Partitions.  Weatherby calibers and Nosler Partitions have been a team for years and will always be a good bet. The Partition has an especially good reputation for  killing the big cats in Africa.

As far as African PH's are concerned - YOU are his employer, that settles which gun you'll use.  The best use for the .378 Wby is as a parent case for the 30-378 and 338-378. If you want big a .30 then go for the .375 Wby, otherwise get a .40 cal something or other.

 

 

[mactuff]

I bought a mark 5 deluxe and had it reworked to suit most applications. A bedded fibreglass stock, recknagel twist off mounts and after market safari sights topped with a vari X 3x10 leupold scope. Bought that rifle especially for my trip to Africa after talking to my guide and finding out shots on eland, gemsbok, kudu could be 300 to 400 yards as well as being tougher to put down. My main game was lion so a dangerous game rifle with reach seemed to be the one gun armoury i was looking for. There is no doubt the 378 WM did it all, guides don't like muzzle breaks, mine insisted I not use it. Eland was shot out at 420 yards and the barnes 250TTSX was totally expanded on the other side, the gemsbok was 410 yards and was levelled with a shoulder shot, the lion was stopped in his bed and shot more that once but did not last long at 30 yards he took a beating. One bullet through the font shoulders and spine was found under the skin on the far side with one petal missing, definitely the last shot required. It will do all you want but i have a 500NE double that is going back for elephant next time. As you can see i really like my 378, terrific cartridge and will use it on kodiak next spring If I get drawn - no regrets except i had to come home.

[mactuff]

The 378 wm was my choose of rifle for Africa - shot a lion, a buffalo, an eland,
A gemsbok,kudu a warthog. Shot placement  is of course what really matters. If your comfortable with the 378 it will preform beyond your expectation, I shot game over 400 yards and the result is amazing. Took a gemsbok out like it was struck with lightening, Shot a kudu at 175 yards and knocked him over sideways. The 378 has power to spare but use the best bullets you can buy- I used  250 and 350 TSX bullets. The eland was shot through the ribs at 420 yards, the bullet was on the other side under the hide but was 100% expanded- I was amazed at the bullet performance and the energy of the 378, outstanding.

[Marishka]

Take your .378 Weatherby. I own that and quite a few other Weatherbys in Mk V. And, the control feed argument, in my opinion, is simply a marketing ploy. In all my years I have never had a problem with a Mk V.

On the ammo issue, for the CCZ .375 H&H, if that is an issue simply drop down to a .375 Weatherby for it will also shoot the .375 H&H and is much more powerful than the .375 H&H. The .375 Weatherby delivers 5,224 ft lbs with a .300 grain Nosler Partition..

On the caliber, in Africa the minimum requirement in most countries is the .375 H&H. In others it is based on the muzzle energy. The .340 Weatherby delivers more muzzle energy than the .375 H&H. The muzzle energy delivered by the .378 Weatherby using a 300 grain Nosler Partition is 5602 ft lbs. It is also traveling at an mv of 2900 ft per second.

The .375 H&H topped with a 300 grain partition gives only 4000 ft lbs, some 1,602 ft lbs less than the .378 Weatherby. The .416 Rigby with a 400 grain Nosler Partition gives only 4,988 ft lbs, 700 ft lbs less than the .378 Weatherby. The .416 Remington Mag with a 400 grain Nosler Partition gives 5,115 ft lbs, 500 ft lbs less than the .,378 Weatherby. The .458 Winchester Magnum with a 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw gives only 4,495 ft lbs some 1,100 ft lbs less than the .378 Weatherby. Finally, the .416 Dakota loaded with a 350 grain Woodleigh Soft Nose gives 5,691 ft lbs of energy. But, for those who would argue to use the .416 Dakota, they should look at the .378 Weathery loaded with the very same 350 grain Woodleigh Soft Nose. The .378 Weatherby loaded with the 350 grain Woodleigh Soft Nose delivers a whopping 6,196 ft lbs. OUCH!     

[mactuff]

I have only been to Africa once, not nearly enough, but had one gun - the 378 WM. This is not my choice for elephant, or cape buffalo but it will do both. I bought a 500 NE heym 88 B for that, will take it next time. For lion the 378  was extremely effective, eland it was perfect, kudu it was no issue, gemsbok it was lots and for the warthog no issue and not blown apart. The right bullets are the important thing, 400 yards and fully expanded 250 GR TSX on opposite side of the eland - awesome performance. When you are pushing the range out over 300 yards and shooting larger plains game, this cartridge is hard to beat. Now if we could just get Berger to build a 270 GR long range bullet - anyone want to shoot elk over 1,000 yards with power to spare? Really like my 378, accuracy is not an issue with good bullets and a bit of accurizing like a macmillan stock  and good bedding. Some reload experimentation  then time to go hunting.

[Marishka]

The .378 Weatherby Magnum sends a 300 grain full metal jacket  at mv 2925 fps and me 5699 ft lbs

The 500 NE sends a 570 grain full metal jacket at mv 2100 fps and mv 5583 ft lbs.

The .500 NE has nearly twice the recoil. So, the .378 Weatherby hits with more energy and has half the recoil.

Which would you choose?

[mactuff]

I am trying this photo bucket out to see how it works, if it does this is the lion who parted this earth from a 378

[mactuff]

I thought you could not upload pictures on this site- how did this work, thought it would be an attachment. If I did something wrong i apologize - ignorance is bliss when i work with a computer.

[mactuff]

I have had a lot of company coming to see this magnificent lion, i never get tired of looking at him either, those memories run deep.