Spike Camp

Nosler Ballistic tips

8isenough

Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2015, 08:04:28 AM »
Quote
Lose the close range, the high velocity, or the tough game part, and it's likely the Partition would not have come from that experience

Just the high velocity... which the excess energy wouldn't be there either.  But todays hunters really are convinced that they need that extra punch, that those marketers sware they need. Once the initial shock and hemoraging is accomplished who cares what happens to the bullet. Once the bullet is passed the vitals what else is left for it to accomplish?? Nothing.

Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2015, 08:11:30 AM »
Quote
Lose the close range, the high velocity, or the tough game part, and it's likely the Partition would not have come from that experience

Just the high velocity... which the excess energy wouldn't be there either.┬  But todays hunters really are convinced that they need that extra punch, that those marketers sware they need. Once the initial shock and hemoraging is accomplished who cares what happens to the bullet. Once the bullet is passed the vitals what else is left for it to accomplish?? Nothing.
Destroy meat?  ;D

dubyam

  • *****
  • 4765
    • View Profile
Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2015, 10:10:41 AM »
Ahhh, but therein lies the rub. Its not just the velocity. If you shoot an antelope with the same load Nosler shot that moose, it would end differently. If you shot a big caribou (not exact but similar size to moose) with the same load, different outcome. Shoot that same moose with the same load at twice the range, and you get a different outcome. Its the combination of the three which brought John Nosler to his design.

Now, speaking in terms of modern loads, you can certainly kill game with standard cup and core bullets, and even from magnum velocity rounds. But the question then becomes "When?" When are you going to have to pass on a shot due to a hard quartering animal and insufficient bullet to get to the vitals in the first place? When are you going to have a bullet failure on a shot you shouldn't have taken with that specific bullet and load? When is Murphy going to bite you squarely in the kiester?

I use the bullets I use because my research said they were appropriate, and my subsequent experience says they work in a variety of scenarios and shot angles on big and small deer. You don't have to use a premium bullet in a magnum velocity round, but for me, the performance I get is worth the price of entry, and gives me peace of mind that I am taking all the factors of how I hunt into consideration and using the best tool for the job. You shoot whatever you like, but know that in some situations there are shots you should not take with a typical cup and core bullet, especially at magnum velocities. If you're fine with that, then it's all good. For the record, I won't use E-Tips in my standard velocity rounds for white-tails because I believe they are too robust and will not open appropriately.

Lastly, I prefer exit wounds, as tracking is greatly aided by a blood trail from the exit wound. Most deer don't fall where they are shot, so tracking here in the thick woods of northern Alabama is an important consideration.
I believe this is a practical world, and in it I can count only on what I can earn.  Therefore I believe in work, hard work. - The Auburn Creed
The older I get, the less stock I place in what men say, and the more I place in what men do. - Andrew Carnegie

8isenough

Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2015, 11:26:31 AM »
Quote
When are you going to have to pass on a shot due to a hard quartering animal and insufficient bullet to get to the vitals in the first place?

If this guy didn't have you too.. then I really feel sorry for you carrying that heavy Magnum you tote around with you while you're hunting... ; )



"Below me about 250 to 300 yards away was a big bull elk quartering away  from me. I put a 150 grain .270 bullet through the ribs high on the left side. It angled on down through the lungs and smashed the right shoulder. The elk was down and stone dead before I could get another cartridge in the chamber.  Les surveyed the damage. If anyone ever tells me the .270 isn't an elk cartridge," he said, " I'll tell him he's nuts"

This guy mainly used Western Silvertip bullets. Now... saying that, what about these bullets that you so desperately need?

Know who he was?????

I don't think he was too concerned about the bullet when he witnessed this critter drop.

Quote
tracking is greatly aided by a blood trail from the exit wound


Uh huh.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 11:52:07 AM by 8isenough »

PARA45

  • *****
  • 3422
    • View Profile
Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2015, 11:55:41 AM »
Ballistic tips will kill like any other bullet regardless of how they are constructed.┬  However, the issue with ballistic tips and Weatherby magnum velocities is that BT are thin walled and will basically detonate on impact if shot at too close of a distance.┬  If you shoot a deer or any other animal for that fact between 10-50 yds, the bullet will explode on impact and not go through.┬  Yes, the animal may/may not die and now you might have to track this wounded animal with only one small entry wound.┬  Shoot at┬  the same deer at 150-400 yds, and the bullet will performed exceptionally well.┬  Hunting is never the same, and that is why we match bullet to our cartridges.┬  I don't shoot e-tips, but I do shoot Accubonds, and I shoot them for that same reason.┬  I want a strong bullet that will perform great  from 10 to 350 yds.  I want the bullet to hit the animal hard and go through so in the event that the animal is not dead, I have a good blood trail to follow.┬  Have I used BT?┬  Yes sir I have, but in non-magnum calibers and they work as advertised.┬ 
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 11:57:39 AM by Oscar »

Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2015, 12:19:40 PM »
I agree.  I made a mistake on the other end of the spectrum.  I used a 130 grain Swift Sirocco II out of a .264 Winchester Magnum on a buck antelope five years ago.  The bullet was awesome and the load was incredibly accurate.  The buck was a perfect broadside shot at 300 yards.  I hit him 3 times and he didn't even flinch.  He buckled a bit on the fourth shot and the fifth shot finally dropped him. 

When I field dressed him, there were 5 pencil sized holes right through the vitals in a 2" group.  Problem was...none of them opened up.  Now...I think the Sirocco is an excellent bullet, but I misapplied the bullet on the game.  Had I used a more appropriate bullet for the game, it would have been fine.

So, mistakes can be made either way.  I learned a valuable lesson - a super premium is not always the answer on all types of game. 
JK

dubyam

  • *****
  • 4765
    • View Profile
Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2015, 12:48:54 PM »
8isenough, you're more than welcome to use whatever bullet you wish. I've said that more than once. Please, please, please use whatever suits you.

Beyond that, you seem to want to argue the point, which is not worth my time. I never once said cup and core bullets won't work on larger game, nor did I say they won't work in a magnum rifle. But the example you cite above from JOC is neither close range nor magnum velocity, so it is irrelevant to what I was saying. In fact, I've said in this thread I use standard cup and core bullets in non-magnum rounds. Either you want to argue or you don't read or don't understand my posts.

Shoot whatever you want. Seriously. I don't care. But by that same token, I'll shoot what I want.
I believe this is a practical world, and in it I can count only on what I can earn.  Therefore I believe in work, hard work. - The Auburn Creed
The older I get, the less stock I place in what men say, and the more I place in what men do. - Andrew Carnegie

eford

  • *****
  • 2569
    • View Profile
Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2015, 01:19:56 PM »
A slight branching of the subject here:
Wyominghunter: Your experience with Swift Scirocco IIs is interesting. For my own selfish reasons, I want it is unique since I want to use those bullets with my 6.5 Creedmoor this winter. What do you think the impact velocity was for your bullets that passed through?

Last Friday, I had an interesting conversation with someone with a ton of experience with Swift bullets and he never mentioned Sciroccoĺs passing through without dropping a game animal, but at the same time similar or like hunts can have very different outcomes.
Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine.

Every man needs to know his limits.

Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2015, 02:34:56 PM »
My continuing problem is how do you predict what range a hunted animal appears and at what angle. I hunt hogs primarily. After taking a bunch of deer, I consider hogs as considerably tougher critters. You tell me the exact range the critter appears, I will tell you what bullet works best at the expected velocity. After that is a 100% crap shoot. 100yds and under guaranteed? I`ll pick my 74 caliber 12 gauge slug gun EVERY time. Who cares about "expansion" or holding "together"!  This is probably the 5-6 time I posted the almost exact same thing!   ;D

galamb

  • *****
  • 602
    • View Profile
Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #24 on: March 30, 2015, 03:21:52 PM »
Yes, I am also interested in the Scirocco's but am also aware that they need a fairly "fast" impact to work properly - they are maybe the "most bonded" of the bonded bullets out there. From the Swift site @ 1750 fps impact there "isn't" much expanding going on.

But again, as has been tossed around, even these supposedly "stout" bullets can come apart at high speed/close impacts.

Even in my non-magunum 30.06 shooting a 165 grain Fusion (supposedly chemically bonded according to Federal), I hit a young buck @ "maybe" 20 yards - so give or take 2900 fps.

The shot was right through the ribs on the left side with the path running towards the forward shoulder on the right side (so a sorta-quartering shot).

There was "no exit" and the retained weight of the bullet was zero, unless I had of collected all the sand sized particles - there was absolutely nothing larger left of the bullet than a grain of sand and I looked pretty hard (especially since the front right quarter of the deer looked like it had been hung up and shot two or three times with number 8 skeet from a few feet away).

The bullet was both successful and deadly, the deer kicked, tried to run, realized he was dead and laid down - so yes it worked.

Did it destroy a bunch of meat - absolutely. But if I had of shot him with a mono or something almost as tough (a-frame etc) AND not impacted the front shoulder would he have run into the swamp and possibly not been recovered?

Can't say though, because if I am hunting deer with a stout bullet my shot placement changes if they are in close. I will purposely shoot for the shoulder to take him down "fully realizing" that a second dispatching shot will probably be in order - but that also "restricts" the shots I will take - in that case I want a quartering shot.

Using a more conventional bullet (typically gamekings) or even the SST's, I want a "broadside" shot.

So there is still no "perfect bullet" :)
Graham
R.C.A.F (Retired)
Ontario, Canada
The Great White North EH!

Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2015, 03:26:52 PM »
eford - I think my problem was both impact velocity and the fact that antelope are relatively thin-skinned game. I probably wouldn't use a Swift Sirocco on antelope again regardless of caliber or velocity - I just don't think they're the right bullet for that application. I think the .264 Winchester Magnum was too fast as well.

That is not a condemnation of the Swift Sirocco - I think it is a great bullet! I think it would be a terrific performer on a big mule deer buck or bull elk (or moose, etc...). A bullet with a thinner jacket is the right one for antelope. So...depending on what game you're going after, the Sirocco in the 6.5 Creedmoor may be just fine.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 03:29:59 PM by wyominghunter »
JK

8isenough

Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2015, 04:11:26 PM »
swift jackets are too thick.. oh yeah and Ballistic Tip jacket are too thin... my bad.   :-\  ::)

Tryin to figure out what Ballistic silver tip in the .338 200 grainer is good for though?  The silver tips are constructed the same as the BT's.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2015, 04:42:10 PM by 8isenough »

Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2015, 04:49:44 PM »
Hey, after all is said and hashed and rehashed, go with what is most accurate. The longest one shot kill I have ever done was with a 180 Remington Core-lokt!  1950`s technology!   ;D

Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2015, 06:06:26 PM »
swift jackets are too thick.. oh yeah and Ballistic Tip jacket are too thin... my bad.┬  ┬ :-\┬  ::)

Tryin to figure out what Ballistic silver tip in the .338 200 grainer is good for though?┬  The silver tips are constructed the same as the BT's.

Let me be specific - Swift Sirocco bullets are not the right bullet construction for antelope.
JK

8isenough

Re: Nosler Ballistic tips
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2015, 10:02:27 PM »
thats not they way they advertise them, otherwise why would you have used them on Antelope?