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Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?

Mike

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Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« on: August 23, 2008, 11:31:05 AM »
I would be interested in hearing from anyone who is experiencing accuracy problems with non-lead ammo, especially anyone in California who is trying to adapt to the new regulations requiring the use of non-lead ammo across large portions of the state. (Some guns simply don't like copper. I personally am still struggling to come up with an acceptable combination. Thus far, my .300 WSM does not like the E-tip and my .270 Win. doesn't like the triple shock. I hear the factory Weatherby triple shock loads in .257 are quite accurate, but haven't tried those yet.) I'd like to hear about some of your best rifle/caliber/copper bullet combinations -- as well as the worst. Emphasis on factory ammo for the non-reloader. Your input may be helpful for a future magazine story.

Everyone has a common interest in this topic. For better or worse, a lot of the BS that starts in the People's Republic of Kalifornia often spreads to other states. You can bet the antis will, sooner or later, attempt to repeat their success in California elsewhere.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Mike

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Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2008, 11:58:49 AM »
Come on, folks. Don't be shy. Let's hear about your rifle/caliber/copper ammo experiences -- good or bad. Thanks for  your input.

Daniel

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Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2008, 12:46:08 PM »
I will have plenty of info for you next weekend as I am making trip to the range with 4 rifles and three different makes all shooting Barnes TSX or Tipped TSX bullets bothe factory and reloaded in .257 Weatherby Magnum, .270 Winchester, .300 Weatherby and .350 Remington Magnum.  I will report back on what I find.  One thing I have been told is that the rifle must be completely clean prior to shooting with all copper fouling removed.  Hope that helps. ;D
Daniel

Mark

Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2008, 02:36:35 PM »
I don't live in the People's Republic of Kalifornia, but I chose to use copper bullets because I like them.  I am a big fan of the Barnes line of bullets.  I use the Barnes Varmint Grenade in my .223, the Barnes TSX in my .25-06, .270 Win, .30-06, 300 Win Mag, and .338 Win Mag, plus I use the Barnes Banded Solids in my .458 Lott.  I think the Barnes bullets are well-designed and both accurate and deadly.  I have not had any accuracy problems with any of the Barnes products.  The Varmint Grenades just blow the critters up, and the TSX drops big game hard and fast.

TheONE73 is correct, your rifle must be completely clean prior to shooting.  Barnes references this in their reloading manuals #3 and #4.  That is not to say people who experience accuracy problems have dirty guns or do not take care of them.  Far from it.  Every rifle barrel is different from how many rounds have been shot through it to the twist rate to the age of the barrel to the barrel length to the materials used and the proccess used to make the barrel to yes, the way the barrel way taken care of.  Even one of these things can use the same bullet to perform differently in two different rifles. 

Another factor is the load used with the bullet.  When using factory loads, you can only buy the load that is sold.  The same charge will have different effects in different rifles.  I do not have that problem.  By handloading, you can experiment until you get the powder type and weight that works best the copper bullet in your rifle.

Quote
Everyone has a common interest in this topic. For better or worse, a lot of the BS that starts in the People's Republic of Kalifornia often spreads to other states. You can bet the antis will, sooner or later, attempt to repeat their success in California elsewhere.

This is the key statement.  This lead ban has nothing to do with the condor, it is the animal-rights wackos initial salvo to ban hunting first in California, then throughout the US.  At best there is shaky and questionable scientific evidence to support the lead ban, and at worst, which I believe is the case, the evidence to support the lead ban is not valid.  We all do have a common interest in this.  These PETA freaks have never even been in the woods.  They couldn't tell the difference between a whitetail and a moose.  Man, at the top of the food chain, is the predator at the top of the order.  With the most intelligence, man is the supreme hunter.  Humans keep the balance of nature in tact, not destroy it.  We as hunters are the true conservationists.  We care about and love nature.   We care about seeing species flourish.  If all the game went extinct, we would have nothing to hunt.  Most of us have kids and grandkids who we want to have the same opportunity to hunt as we did.   I would through this back in PETA's face: You animal-rights idiots are killing a live organism when you eat your plants.  YOU are destroying the planet by taking an excessive amount of plant life which turns carbon dioxide into oxygen.  Yes I know this argument is not valid, but the PETA morons know nothing about science and would not know this is not true.

That is my $0.02.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 02:44:22 PM by Mark »
If guns kill people, then

Mike

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Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2008, 12:19:19 AM »
TheOne73 - I would be very interested in your results, as I've only tested two factory copper loads in two rifles so far, both with disappointing results -- and both rifles were very clean and free of copper fouling at the time. I use Bore Tech to get the copper out -- awesome stuff. Environmentally friendly, won't harm bores and gets copper out FAST. Both rifles, by the way, shoot MOA with lead.

JBond - Amen to that. I have a T-Shirt you would love:
"PETA - People for Eating Tasty Animals"

I would be very interested to know which factory loads performed well in which calibers and rifles. Anything I may write on this downstream will be geared for the masses, meaning non-reloaders, and must focus on factory ammo.  Any observations on how many rounds you can push out the barrel, in your accurate factory loads, before things go south, as well as your MOST accurate rifle/caliber/copper bullet combination?

Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2008, 04:31:39 AM »
My .300 Deluxe still shoots the original 180 grain Barnes-X extremely well.  I'm down to my last three boxes of them.  That same gun also shoots the 180 grain Accubond just as well, so I have a good fall back.  I have several boxes of 300 grain Barnes TSX that I still need to try out in my .375H&H and some 400 grain TSXs for my .416 Wby.  I'll reply with the results once I get them to the range.
Jerry

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All Weatherby, All the Time

Mark

Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2008, 10:54:43 PM »
Huntwriter,

I think you are absoutely correct when you say this should be geared to the masses.  I would not exclude handloaders however.  Due to the skyrocketing cost of ammunition, more people then ever are reloading.   When you reload at half the cost of factory ammo, handloading becomes more and more attractive to the average hunter and shooter.    I think this thread should be about the accuracy of all copper ammunition whether it be reloads or factory.  If you go the the reloading forums, some people HATE Barnes bullets and just rip them to no end.

I think this thread is very important to show what the antis are trying to do to us the the effects of their actions.  In a recent poll when asked, "Do you approve or disapprove of legal hunting?", 77.6% of the respondants approved of hunting (45.4% strongly approve, 32.2% moderately approved), while only 16.3% disapproved (8.0% strongly disapproved, 8.3% moderately disapproved, the remaining 6.1% neither approved or disapproved of hunting or didn't know.  The people that strongly approved of hunting are almost 600% greater then those who strongly disapprove of hunting.  We are the majority, not the PETA wackos.  In the same poll, 93.3% approve of fishing with 68.5% strongly approving of fishing.  This animal-rights idiots want to ban fishing too!  We are the majority, but groups like HSUS and PETA know how to work the system.  Instead of saying they want to ban hunting, they take away our rights in steps.  Protecting the condor by banning lead bullets is the first step.  I think it is important to see what these governmental actions are doing to the average hunter.

By the way huntwriter, I have a hat that has the same slogan  ;D
If guns kill people, then

Mike

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Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2008, 04:42:18 PM »
JB257460 - So you like to shoot the light stuff, I see. I'd love to hear about your results.
JBond - Preachin' to the choir, bud. Right with you on the antis. Maybe I need to wear the T-shirt AND the hat. There's a statement... Re. my focus on factory ammo, that's just for a story downrange. The thread is obviously open to discussion of all aspects of this topic, and I'd like to see more people weigh in with their experiences.  Even though I won't be focusing on handloading copper for a story, I'd be interested in reading some of those anti-copper posts from the other forums. You have any good links? Meanwhile, I'm moving on to test rifle no. 3 with copper. I hear some of the boys at Weatherby get good results with the factory triple shocks with 100-gr. loads (as loaded for them by Norma).  If that stuff won't group I'm going to start getting a serious anti-copper 'tude. I have a terminal case of the MOA disease... I simply will not own (for long, anyway) any centerfire, bolt-action rifle that I can't make shoot MOA.

Mark

Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2008, 11:02:57 PM »
I just back from a range session with my Vanguard in .270 Win.  I shot factory Federal 130 gr Triple-Shock X ammunition and shot sub MOA.  I chronographed my 140 gr Barnes TSX with 51 gr of H4350 powder, Federal 210 primer, and Federal case.  Tighest group of velocities I have ever shot for a five shot string.  My standard deviation was only 2 fps and the extreme spread was only 6 fps and again I shot sub MOA groups.  This is from a dirty barrel after shooting my box of factory loaded Barnes.   The biggest difference in accury for me was replacing the factory trigger with a Timney trigger.  The Timney made my .270 Win a tack driver.

Huntwriter, I will find the anti-copper posts and link them for you in my next post.
If guns kill people, then

Mike

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Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2008, 08:49:43 PM »
Wow, that's outstanding. Your .270 is apparantly quite less finicky than mine. It hated the Federal triple shocks. And, yes, all three of the Vanguards I own wear Timney triggers. They're great. It may take me a few weeks to get to it, but the calibers I intend to test next with factory copper ammo (after I get back from a New Mexico mule deer muzzleloader hunt in late Sept.) will be .257 Wby Mag, .308 and .338 Federal. The first will be out of my tack-driving Vanguard .257, and the latter two will be out of brand new rifles, a Kimber Montana and a Ruger 77 Hawkeye, respectively. Thus far I am zero for two with Vanguards and copper ammo.

tclark

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Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 10:37:51 PM »
Hey huntwriter,

The copper bullets by Barnes have worked well for me.
I have a model 700 stainless sps with a hs precision sporter stock chambered in 270 wsm.  This rifle shoots shoots sub moa with 130 federal tsx factory loads.  My 300 wby mark V shots same with factory 180 x bullets.  I too have less than three boxes left.  I hope it shoots the same with the tsx.  My mark v fibermark in 7mm rem mag shoots the 160 tsx bullet loaded by federal at .75-1.25 moa all day long. 
I have taken three deer with tsx / 270 wsm combo. Two droped one went 40 yds with a very large exit hole.  I have taken more than 10 with the 300 utilizing the x bullet, none went over 20 yds.  I took two last year with the tsx / 7 rem mag and both deer went about 15yds.  The ranges of the above shots vary from 50 yds to over 300yds and at all angles.  I have yet to recover a bullet, but I alway get the deer.  When I clean the deer the results are always the same; lots of permanent cavitation.  The new years eve buck on my profile was shot at over 300 yrds. the bullet entered the left side just behind the  front shoulder and after braking the shoulder exited the right front.  Most organs forward the diaphragm were mush.  I have had good results using factory loaded Barnes bullets from federal and Weatherby. 
Whether I like them or not, I think it is crap that you are forced to use them in California.  Many people sacrificed for our freedom. The folks in state and federal government should be looking at a few more pressing issues rather than trying to tell us how to manage the game population.  We have done a much better job with our task than they have with theirs.  They could start with feeding hungry people then worry about animals. I am not for big government but if they are going to spend our money they could at least spend it on people.  Preferably if possible those that at least try to help themselves.
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Mike

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Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2008, 11:19:52 PM »
Thanks for the feedback. The BS in the People's Republic here does try one's patience, as does this whole exercise of trying to find one rifle in my collection that actually likes copper. I'm just trying to get a sense of how unusual my bad experiences are compared to the masses. It's difficult to believe I'm the only guy who's having issues with copper ammo. Anyone out there have any experience, good or bad, with their .257 Wby Mag and Wby factory triple shocks?

Daniel

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Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2008, 08:10:16 AM »
I took my .257 Weatherby Vanguard to the range this past weekend and first used the 100gr. SP to get the rifle sighted in and then proceeded to first dial -in the 100 TSX factory load and then shoot some steel rams at 185 yds, 365 yds., 450yds, and finally 550 yds.  The ammo worked flawessly and was very accurate.  At the first three ranges I rang the steel with every shot...then the wind picked up and it took 3 shots at 550 but all were close and in the "ballpark".  I am pleased with both the rifle and the ammunition and faith they will serve me well deer hunting this season.  The trigger has some creep in it, but it is consistent and I know it and compensate accordingly.

I also shot factory 165 TSX through a .300 Weatherby Vanguard with good results and rang the same steel out to 360 yds.  My handloads in my .350 RM were accurate as well.  I am pleased with the TSX performance at the range and hope they do as well in the field this fall. ;D
Daniel

Mike

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Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2008, 11:49:48 AM »
Thanks for the report. What kind of groups did you get at 100 with your .257 and the TSX? I think you will be very happy with your .257. I love mine. It has, in a relatively short period of time, accounted for a mule deer, three whitetails (including a 230-lb. bruiser), a javelina, a 200-lb. wild boar, a pronghorn and a coyote. You may want to consider replacing the factory trigger with a Timney. I've done that on all three of the Vanguards I own. It's almost a simple drop in. You'll likely only need to relieve a very small amount of material -- just make a small notch, really -- on the right side of the inletting to allow for the greater forward travel of the safety lever. It's pretty obvious when you look at it. I did mine with a dremel tool, but something as simple as a pocket knife will work. (The Timney upgrades from a two-position to a three-position safety). The triggers are wonderful.

Which 300 were you shooting? Win Mag, Wby Mag, WSM??? And did it group well at 100?

Daniel

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Re: Does Your Rifle Hate Copper Ammo?
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2008, 12:50:08 PM »
I didn't measure any groups but you could have easily covered them with a quarter and the accuracy held up at range as I was practically calling every shot on the steel rams out to 450yds. It is a great gun and I love the laminate stock SS combo it looks as good as it shoots.

I may replace the trigger eventually but like I said it is predictable and therefore not a detriment to my purposes.

I hope my mini report was useful.  I don't know if I am extraordinarily lucky or what but in 3 different calibers and two different makes of rifle the TSX shot  very well.
Daniel