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Savage lawsuits

Savage lawsuits
« on: December 07, 2017, 07:24:26 AM »
Seems Savage muzzle loaders are blowing up in shooters hands, according to a story I just saw. Here's the link:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/gun-makers-exploding-rifle-leaves-183639208.html
Some like cologne, I like the smell of gunpowder.

Chris

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Re: Savage lawsuits
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 08:25:08 AM »
I had one of the older ones that used the module that looked like a .40 S&W. I liked it.
Chris Kiefner

NRA Life Member

danno50

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Re: Savage lawsuits
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 10:34:17 AM »
Thats the ASSociated Press version of the story, Now, as Paul Harvey use to say, "Heres the rest of the story." The following rebuttal is lengthy but if you want to be informed, read it.
http://randywakeman.com/HowToBlowUpASavage10ML.htm
DosEquisShooter

Chris

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Re: Savage lawsuits
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 10:39:34 AM »
I tried 4 pellets in mine(not advocating) grouped pretty bad and had some recoil.
Chris Kiefner

NRA Life Member

Re: Savage lawsuits
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 11:10:39 AM »
I thought the idea of using smokeless powder in this rifle was really great.  I have read extensively on the reports of them blowing up, and I think that many of them were double charges of smokeless powder.   I think that Savage is getting a bad rap on these.  Just about any firearm can "blow up" if something is terribly amiss.  Unfortunately, with the excessive numbers of ambulance chasing lawyers, anti-gun sentiment, fake news, and such, the real truth of the situation will probably never be told.  Of note, an old experienced muzzle loading shooter I know, told me to make witness marks on my ramrod, designating empty bore, loaded with powder, and loaded with ball and powder, once I had established the load I was using.  He said that then I could visually determine, using my ramrod as the gauge, what was in it.  MM 

galamb

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Re: Savage lawsuits
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 01:11:18 PM »
I shoot (modern built) traditional muzzle loaders.

My opinion is they are meant to be shooting black powder or one of the subs, not smokeless.

Modern rifles were built to use smokeless powder.

When people want a muzzle loader, to be used in the (primitive arms) hunts but insist on loading it with smokeless powder so that it gives them an advantage over one using black, that is just asking for trouble.

There may be a mfg issue with the barrels. And there may be some operator error - many of these rifles probably ended up in the hands of those that have no idea as to what they are actually handling, they just want an extra week or two of "rifle" hunting.

But ultimately, if the fish/game departments would just push for laws that clearly specified what is a primitive weapon for these special seasons you wouldn't get franken-guns being used that have a ton of room for operator error.
Graham
R.C.A.F (Retired)
Ontario, Canada
The Great White North EH!

Re: Savage lawsuits
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 01:37:07 PM »
The guy in the story claims he loaded it by the book, but if he wants a settlement, of course he's going to say that. It's anybody's guess where the fault truly lies. Savage has a good track record, but then again, any company can screw up at some point. Who knows what the guy (and the alleged others) really dumped down the barrel. I'm inclined to think that if the gun is a bad model, they'd be blowing up pretty regularly. I used to sometimes hunt a muzzle loader, but I'm a purist on that and always used a historic flintlock - I like nostalgic and authentic, so I wouldn't ever buy one of those anyway.
Some like cologne, I like the smell of gunpowder.

Chris

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Re: Savage lawsuits
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 02:19:38 PM »
I now only shoot caplocks but I am really wanting to get into flintlocks. My inline isn’t sealing to well and I get blow back around places you shouldn’t. I would be one of the first inline for a Weatherby smokeless muzzleloader if they ever made one.
Chris Kiefner

NRA Life Member

Re: Savage lawsuits
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 10:02:00 PM »
With most any item/tool, there is the desire by some, to "improve upon it."  They "evolve," sometimes into something that hardly resembles the original item.  Look at archery equipment.  When the seasons first started in my area, maybe the mid-sixties, you had a Bear or Ben Pearson recurve bow, cedar shafts, no sights, real feathers, fingers on the string, arrow on the shelf.  Now look at archery equipment.  Graphite shafts, mechanical "broadheads, levels, lasers, tritium sights, releases, and the bow itself looks more like a piece of gym equipment, than a bow.  A local fellow I know, got tired of all that, and went way primitive; made his own bow, knapped his own flint points, made shafts out of youpon switches, and he enjoyed hunting with that more.  That is what happened to muzzle loaders.  What started out as maybe using a Lyman, was it a "Plainsman" rifle made from a kit, to now day's in-lines, shotgun primers, black powder substitutes, pellets, scopes, sabots, pointed bullets, and the Savage, that could use smokeless powder.  Muzzle loaders, too, have evolved.  And one thing that varies from state to state, is the "verbiage" used to designate the separate season.  In Texas, it is "Muzzle Loading."  I asked my game warden if I could use my reproduction of a 1847 Colt Walker cap and ball, black powder revolver.  He said "No, it doesn't load from the muzzle."  Some states, it is "Black powder."  So I would assume one could not use the Savage loaded with smokeless..... but I could use my Colt Walker... maybe.  Would Pyrodex and the other black powder substitutes be legal.  Technically, they are not "black powder."  Could I shoot my black powder Rolling Block .45-70; it's black powder.  And do some states state "Primitive."  What does that mean; flint lock, cap lock, cap and ball revolvers.  Some states do not allow scopes on muzzle loaders; too modern.  But primitive scopes were used in the Civil War, and during the buffalo killing years.  So, I guess everything is up to interpretation, and what one considers something to be.  A crusty old muzzle loader shooter friend of mine, wrote a letter to whichever company came out with the first "pellets."  He said in the letter, "I have a great idea.  Why don't y'all take one or two of those pellets, and put them in a brass cylindrical tube.  Then affix a cap to one end, and while your at it, put a projectile on the other end.  Then design a firearm where you can insert this thing from the rear."  He never got a response.  And he NEVER used them; he thought it took away from the "spirit" of shooting a muzzle loader.  Anyway, everyone has their own way of looking at things.  I am not a great "hunter" like most of y'all, I need every advantage I can get.  That idea of a Weatherby inline that can use smokeless powder, and NOT BLOW UP, even with an over charge, sounds like a nifty firearm to consider building.  Could they affix a "blow out plug" on it, like water heaters and air compressers have.  MM

Re: Savage lawsuits
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2017, 08:33:48 AM »
Don't know if that game warden was quoting a statute or winging it, but it kind of sounds like he was talking out of his ass to me. Common sense (and a smidgen of knowledge) dictates if you have to pour in powder, ram down a ball (or conical bullet) and prime with powder or a cap, you've got yourself a muzzle loader. Maybe being able to fire six shots in a row might disqualify that revolver, but it's a muzzle loader - it loads into the hole it comes back out of in the opposite direction. There is no open breach.
Some like cologne, I like the smell of gunpowder.

Re: Savage lawsuits
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 06:33:04 PM »
Texweatherby, I COMPLETELY agree with you.  To me, powder, wad, and bullet stuffed in the hole that it comes out of, is about as "black powder," and "primitive" as it gets, no less, in a firearm designed 170 years ago.  It is certainly "in the spirit" of muzzle loading.  But I just checked the Texas game laws, (copy below), and apparently, it isn't.  But "in-lines" and other modern improvement to the muzzle loader are.  Makes no sense to me.  And Texas Game Wardens can search your premises without a search warrant, which to me, violates Federal Law, and I am surprised no one has sued the Texas Parks And Wildlife Department over that yet.  My Dad went with a local group of black powder hunters to New Mexico some twenty or more years ago, and several of them CARRIED cap and ball revolvers for a finishing off shot if necessary, so apparently, New Mexico allowed them at that time; I do not know about now though.  And there needs to be a little bit of "leeway" on the 13 inch minimum inside spread law in some counties.  A friend of mine took a youth from his Church on his very first deer hunt.  He sat with the kid, and the kid shot a smaller buck.  The kid was ecstatic, and my buddy was going to pay to have it mounted for him.  My friend measured it, and it was "right at" 13 inches.  They ended up getting stopped by a real jackass game warden, who measured it and determined it was 12 and 7/8th's inches.  My friend explained that he was taking this kid out for his first deer hunt, and sat with him, and told him it was OK to shoot the buck.  The game warden wrote my friend up a warning ticket, confiscated the deer, and snidely said, "You are lucky I'm not confiscating your rifles."  The young kid fought the tears all the way home, and my friend was fit to be tied.  He was trying to do the right thing, teaching a kid how to hunt, and that was the outcome.  Once that word got out, I have heard of three similar kills that were left out in the woods to rot, because the hunters didn't want to risk a ticket and possible gun confiscation over a spread being a quarter of an inch too small.  A bunch of us that take younger hunters out, painted fifteen inch brackets on our deer feeder barrels, so we would have a "gauge" to compare spreads to, when shooting the smaller bucks.  They need to "adjust" a few laws here in Texas.  MM

Muzzleloader Only White-tailed Deer Season
A muzzleloader is any firearm that is loaded only through the muzzle. Note: A cap and ball firearm in which the powder and ball are loaded into a cylinder is not a muzzleloader. Muzzleloader deer seasons are restricted to muzzleloading firearms only.