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165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag

Jay W

165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« on: November 25, 2018, 05:40:28 PM »
Hopefully everyone had a great Thanksgiving! Now that hunting season has come to a close, it is time to get back to the loading bench and try a little something different for next year. While I haven't gotten away from the 140 Accubonds since they shoot excellent, just thought I would try some Bergers or similar VLD style bullet for 600-800 yard range shooting. I am waiting on some Matrix 165 grain bullets to arrive and experiment with these heavy, high BC (.650) bullets in my .270 Weatherby Mag (Accumark) during the off-season. I have some H1000 powder I think I will start with, may have to go as slow as U869 or Retumbo. Hoping 1-10" will stabilize these bullets. I haven't heard much of this brand... Anyone try these bullets with success? Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.... Jay

dubyam

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Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2018, 08:43:48 PM »
You might get away with enough velocity (look for 3050fps as a good guide to max pressure) to stabilize these, but Matrix has always said these need a 9-twist to stabilize. I'll be interested to hear your results. I suspect you'll have good results with IMR7828ssc, H1000, RL22, or perhaps one of the new RL powders (not sure about loading data, though).
I believe this is a practical world, and in it I can count only on what I can earn.  Therefore I believe in work, hard work. - The Auburn Creed
The older I get, the less stock I place in what men say, and the more I place in what men do. - Andrew Carnegie

Jay W

Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2018, 08:20:26 PM »
The 1-9" claim has me a little worried as well. Matrix told me that the .277" 165's work "MOST" of the time @ WSM and Weatherby velocities in a 1-10" twist. I have 100 new pieces of Norma brass ready to go with 215m primers. Hoping to start out low around 2800 fps and work up in .5 grain increments and end up with good accuracy around the velocity you stated. A bullet like this is a real game changer for a .270 Weatherby if successful ( I gotta try, lol ).  Worse case, I will have 100 new fireformed pieces of brass for my proven Accubond load.... Thnx for the advise dubyam, will let you know in a couple weeks the outcome.... Jay

Jay W

Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2019, 06:02:10 PM »
Finally made it out to the range to try the 165 Matrix Bullets in my .270 Weatherby Mag (Accumark).  As Dubyam suspected, It did get good results with IMR 7828(only had long cut)and H1000 powders. Fortunately, the 1-10" barrel didn't seem to have any trouble stabilizing them @ only 250' of elevation. Weather was fairly cool (about 35-40 degrees) so I didn't want to push it to much, just wanted to see if they would shoot and check some speeds with both powders. No pressure signs so far.  Will see what max load is in my rifle on a warmer day, but so far I like what I am seeing... These bullets are VERY long, magazine feeding wasn't an issue even loaded out to 3.385".  Sub Moa was easily obtainable at 2950-3050 fps. I will attempted to upload a couple of targets....  Jay
(DATA IS FOR MY RIFLE ONLY, START LOW AND WORK UP IN YOUR FIREARM)



   

224KING

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Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2019, 07:13:13 PM »
As I'm reading this I'm thinking to myself... Doesn't a 165 grainer out of a 30-06 do the same thing with 8 or 10 grains of less powder?
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dubyam

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Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2019, 08:54:54 PM »
Well, kind of.  In my 24" barreled 30-06, I'm pushing 168gr Nosler Ballistic Tips at a max charge running mid-2900s.  There's no gas left in the tank on that load, either, as another half grain will begin to show pressure signs.  So not quite the same velocity.  But the real difference comes when you realize the 165/168gr .308cal bullet is on the lower end of mid-weight bullets in the 30-06, but it's on the upper end of bullet weights for the .277cal.  Comparing the SDs, you see that the 165gr .277cal bullet with an SD of .307 compares far more favorably to the 200gr .308cal bullet (SD=.301), in terms of weight for caliber.  What that means in target shooting is generally - if shape remains consistent or at least similar - the heavier bullet will have a higher BC, and thus a flatter trajectory for a given velocity.  Using the JBM Ballistics calculator, comparing the drop of the 165gr bullet in both calibers, at 3000fps, zeroed at 200yds, the difference at 300 is half an inch.  At 400, it opens to 1.7".  Moving out to 700, the difference is 14.5", which is more than 2MOA more drop.  At 1000, it's 58.5" - nearly 6MOA more drop.  While drop is easy to account for in shooting, realize that also means wind drift is significantly greater.  At 500yds, drift in a 10mph wind, is a little over a minute difference.  At 700 and 1000, the spread is 1.8MOA and 3.1MOA.  That's where the difference lies, in terms of pushing a 165gr bullet roughly 3000fps.
I believe this is a practical world, and in it I can count only on what I can earn.  Therefore I believe in work, hard work. - The Auburn Creed
The older I get, the less stock I place in what men say, and the more I place in what men do. - Andrew Carnegie

Jay W

Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2019, 08:03:29 PM »
Dubyam, I believe you hit the nail on the head...  With normal hunting ranges (typically 200-400 yards) I won't see much change. I am trying the 165's hoping to accomplish a couple things(less wind drift & and higher velocity/energy @ extended ranges).  I believe I will see both @ 800 yards. Trajectory @ 800 yards shows fairly close to my 140 Accubonds @ 3325 fps. Will verify in a couple weeks...

Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2019, 12:42:32 AM »
There are some interesting discussions on the web and I think on the website of Bryan Litz, about stability. There are of course various online tools (formulae based) to measure this. If you aren't familiar with the writings and work of Litz take a look, although given the bullet you chose you no doubt have spent time there.

What is interesting is his testing of BC in different twist rate rifles and the findings there. I saw results of tests specifically with the, then new, Long Range Accubond. Twist rates that are too slow are detrimental to BC. There are also theories about on target stability of marginal twists (i.e. terminal ballistics being influenced by this).

Anyhow, for what it is worth, just something else to read...
I shoot cases with a belt because I feel the other cartridges need to pull their trousers up.

Jay W

Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2019, 01:49:17 AM »
I am still a little worried about the stability factor. After I recieved the bullets, I actually measured a few and punched it into Litz's Stability Calculator on the Berger site and it comes up "Marginal Stability".  In a few weeks I will be able to stretch them out to 800 yards or so and see how they do. I think they will become "Marginal" at a much further distance than I am even feeling comfortable shooting game at.  It would have to be VERY calm conditions for me to even consider a deer-sized game shot @ 600 yards as I am still not good at reading wind.....  Extending down range energy along with less wind drift were my main goals with this bullet. Something interesting yesterday though, went back out with a few loads in a node that was showing promise and on every group.... First two shots cut the same hole in bullseye, 3rd shot flier @ 3 o'clock an inch out (4 groups almost exactly). Barrel didnt seem to be touching stock(ran a dollar down it). Accumark screws were only torqued to 35 in. Lbs. I retorqued them to 55. I then realized the previous outing I had my Magnetospeed attatched to the barrel while shooting when groups averaged well under MOA. Now, with it off, nothing under 1 MOA. I may have to mount a bayonette. Lol. Loaded up four groups for tomorrow decreasing COAL .010" each time hoping to bring it back together. We'll see how it goes....

Blackbear3

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Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2019, 06:46:31 AM »
I am still a little worried about the stability factor. After I recieved the bullets, I actually measured a few and punched it into Litz's Stability Calculator on the Berger site and it comes up "Marginal Stability".  In a few weeks I will be able to stretch them out to 800 yards or so and see how they do. I think they will become "Marginal" at a much further distance than I am even feeling comfortable shooting game at.  It would have to be VERY calm conditions for me to even consider a deer-sized game shot @ 600 yards as I am still not good at reading wind.....  Extending down range energy along with less wind drift were my main goals with this bullet. Something interesting yesterday though, went back out with a few loads in a node that was showing promise and on every group.... First two shots cut the same hole in bullseye, 3rd shot flier @ 3 o'clock an inch out (4 groups almost exactly). Barrel didnt seem to be touching stock(ran a dollar down it). Accumark screws were only torqued to 35 in. Lbs. I retorqued them to 55. I then realized the previous outing I had my Magnetospeed attatched to the barrel while shooting when groups averaged well under MOA. Now, with it off, nothing under 1 MOA. I may have to mount a bayonette. Lol. Loaded up four groups for tomorrow decreasing COAL .010" each time hoping to bring it back together. We'll see how it goes....
You could try a barrel deresinator-Sims makes them for around $20 and see if that helps?
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Doug-NRA Life Member

Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2019, 08:12:24 AM »
If you wanted to do just a quick test, you could take a piece of modeling clay and put it in the fore end of the stock to act as a short term tensioning point. I have had good luck putting tensioning points 3" back from the nose of the fore end. The modeling clay won't last long as a tensioning point but it should tell you if it will help or not. If it does help then you can build a tensioning point with epoxy that will last.
Weatherby Rifles:
M5 USA .257
M5 USA 6.5-300
M5 USA 300
M5 German 300
M5 .308 TRR
VG .308
VG 270
Other:
Win M70 30-06
Brn XBolt HC Speed 300 WSM
McMil G30 Dynasty 270 WSM
Ber B-14 HMR 6.5 CM
Mar 1895 SBL 45-70
Win 94 pre 64 30-30
4 AR-15 Match 5.56
2 AR-15 Match Wylde .223
1 AR-10 Match .308

Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2019, 09:39:47 PM »
The deresonator will not sort out twist vs. Bullet pength issues of course.
I shoot cases with a belt because I feel the other cartridges need to pull their trousers up.

Jay W

Re: 165 Grain Matrix Bullets .270 Weatherby Mag
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2019, 03:16:03 PM »
Just returned from the range (no more fliers). Problem must've been the under torqued action screws. I removed action, inspected everything and re-torqued action screws, we are back in business! Thanx for all of the help all...