Couple questions from a newbie

[reggart]

My dad has a .300 weatherby magnum in a lasermark.  It is a mid-80's vintage rifle that has approximately 200 +/- rounds through it.  It has done well for my dad and myself for 300 yard and under shots and it has been well maintained.  It has the same vintage leupold mk iv 4 x 12 x 44 adjustable parallax scope.  We have always shot weatherby factory through it and I want to start handloading and accurizing this rifle for extreme distance shooting.  Am I trying to make something better that can't be made better?  The best groups I have ever gotten out of it were 1 moa at 100yds on a bench.  There is a local shop who specializes in building and accurizing long range rifles.  Would I be wasting my money to take the rifle there (assuming the guy is good)?   What I am trying to get at is that I don't want to spend a lot of money on a new barrel and action job when this gun was supposed to be the cat's meow when it was manufactured to begin with.  I assume any of the higher end weatherby's already have a superb barrel and a superb action fit.  I assume that I should be able to work up a handload for the rifle untouched and get 1/2" moa.  If not then I might consider starting from scratch with a different gun.  It seems to me I would be losing resale value on this lasermark if I start replacing parts or having machine work done on it and for the money Dad originally paid, I could get a 1/2 moa or less custom rifle built from the local shop.

[WMDM]

reggart, I guess I would also be considered a newbie compared to the experience of some on this site.  But my two cents are to stick with your current set up!  As it sits it is pretty damn accurate.  Handloads like you say should put you in really good shape.  As for any custom work, I would lean towards Weatherby's custom shop, if you feel it's needed.  Good luck

[trisurvivor]

Reggart,
  I would have to say that if I was in your situation, I wouldn't waste money on the customizer.  Start with quality handloading supplies and work up a load.  I still shoot factory 30-378 rounds because I got them cheap and they shoot amazing in my accumark.  However, I have come up with a handload that is a little better, but I need to finish my factories before getting into the serious reloading on this rifle.  On the other hand, my 270wby ul that I got last fall needed some work.  Factories were ok, but not great.  Definitely under weatherby specs, but not to my standards or hopes.  I used barnes tsx and rl19.  It performed well in the UP of MI, but I am working on a load a little better.  If you are going to keep the rifle, I would invest in a new scope.  Something with a little more magnification would help out shooting at longer ranges.  I am also a firm believer in good rings and bases.  I have always used leupold.  Let us know what you decide and any results.

[NDTerminator]

If you are getting MOA accuracy with factory ammo, you cab probably teak that down some with careful handloading.  Don't be squeamish about giving up some velocity to attain greater accuracy.

If your Lasermark is completely stock, the one thing you might look at is having it glass bedded & floated.  You didn't say anything about the trigger, but a light, crisp trigger is essential for accuracy.  I set most of my triggers at 2.5#-3#...

[reggart]

Thanks for the replies.  I want to clarify what I said above.  I want a 1/2" or under 30 caliber magnum that will give me the confidence that I can make 500 + shots and hit what I am aiming at.  I figure 1" on it's best day is going to give me 5-6" groups at 500 with no wind or mirage issues and that isn't good enough for me to pull the trigger on a deer sized animal in confidence and when I have adrenalin pumping through my veins.  I know most folks would be tickled with 1" moa with any large magnum but I know it can be tightened up with the right gun.

I agree on the scope, that is another reason why I want to save my money if I can so I can spend it on a quality scope setup in the 6-20x range.  I prefer millet products over leupold rings/bases but that is my opinion and I know leupold has made a great name.

Regarding the factory ammo.  I am a reloader and have been doing so for all of my other rifles.  I assume the factory weatherby ammo COL is backed off the lands quite a bit (I don't have any right now to check and I don't want to spend $60 to find out).  I want to handload to the best accuracy and hope & pray it ends up being over 3000 fps.  It sounds like you guys are saying I should load up some handloads and start there then decide if the gun has it or not.  I was just wondering if highend weatherby's are already accurized as good as they can get when the leave the shop.

[zonie]

About the only thing I would do is check the trigger to make sure it breaks clean at 2 to 3 lbs,  and start reloading and testing different components.  I wouldn't start re-bedding you action unless it's stringing your shots.  I have very good luck with most 180 gr bullets using IMR 7828 regular cut, and still get 3200 fps. I personnaly don't shoot at any big game at past 400 yds,  that just me and not any reflection on anyone who does. There are so many things to consider when loading for accuracy start with the easy thngs first.

[NDTerminator]

If a rifle will consistently print an honest MOA, it will have no problem placing rounds in the vitals of medium & big game at 500 yards.  The issues will be with the nut behind the bolt, not the rifle.  The ability to deal with wind, mirage, and controlling your physiological reactions is all in your ballpark...

For what it's worth, I'm a certified LE Sniper and I don't take a shot at big game beyond 300 yards unless I have every last factor entirely in my favor, and have never taken a shot at any big game animal beyond 424 yards (measured by rangefinder)...

[reggart]

I disagree regarding the honest MOA resulting in confident vital hits at 500.  If you do the math, that means a minimum of 5" at 500 and that is without the nut behind the bolt factor or the wind...etc.  If you hold dead center of the lungs, you could hit them high or too far back with a 5" plus group.  I agree that taking a shot at 500 yds is not something a sportsman should do unless he is confident he can do it.  I have regulary taken big game at the 300-400 yd distance in confidence with my .270 win but I won't go past that due to the ballistic characteristics of that cartridge and I do go to the range frequently to keep up the confidence level.  This is why I want a heavier higher BC cartridge with enough knockdown at those ranges to anchor them.

If memory serves me, I believe my dad had the trigger set at 3lbs, I will verify that.  Have any of you had luck loading H4831sc for the 300 weatherby?

[zonie]

H 4831 regular cut and sc is one of my all time favorite powders,  I'm old school so I tend to buy regular cut.  For some reason when testing loads for my 300,  I got better velocity's with IMR 7828 and RE 22 using  180 and 200 gr bullets, accuracy was fine at sub-moa with the powders tested.   Remember that was in my rifle only so I can't say what it will do in yours. Give it a try.  Don't go by published velocity's, you have to put them on a chronograph to get the real story.  The other things a lot of guys do is only shoot at 100 yds and read in the book to see what it's suppose to do at longer ranges ( I am guilty of this also for short tests), but to get the best data you really have to shoot at the longer ranges, there is just too many things that factor in such as temp, altitute etc.  about the farthest I test any load is 500  and sometimes 600 yds in 100 yd increments,  and I don't do this all the time,  It's just fun at times,  I set my max limit at 400 yds for big game hunting and only with calibers capable of getting the job done. Of course if I'm shooting a 30-30 or muzzleloader with iron sights I keep it down to 150 yds or less, and with my Hoyt bow, I practice next to the house and shoot at 70 yds and less, that doesn't mean I hit it, at 40 yds I'm OK, still learning. The one thing I taught my kids boys and girls, when they were big enough with 270's and 30-06's to shoot at 9 in paper plates from,  off hand, sitting,  prone with bi-pods,  kneeling positions until they could hit it every time at different ranges,  that was their max  range for hunting in that position.  Then I started having them shooting at ballons at different ranges,  a very humbling experience. They are young adults now and I can't keep up with them running up mtns to head off elk, I will let them chase them to me, I'm getting smarter. To be honest they may not be the best pure target shooters,  but when it comes to hunting especially elk, I will put them up against anyone, they will dog them for miles and just get it done. Unfortuately it usually in a place I don't want to go anymore. Too much work getting them out.

[reggart]

That is good to know that you had luck with H4831.  I currently have a couple pounds of it for my .270 and it would be economical for me to use it for the 300.  I will still try 7828 because it seems most people swear by it for the 300 wby.

[Squatch]

H4831 will work fine in the 300. I'm getting 3180 out of a 24" Vanguard with the 180 Sierra GK and a max load of H4831SC.Accuracy is also around .75 MOA.  My Mark V Deluxe 300 WBY puts the factory loaded 180s consistently under .75 MOA, I haven't really loaded much for it yet.

[aka Hunter]

I'm getting 3180 out of a 24" Vanguard with the 180 Sierra GK and a max load of H4831SC.

Interesting.  Hodgdon's website shows 79 gr as max for one 180 gr bullet, and 81.5 gr as max for another 180 gr bullet.  Using yet another 180 gr bullet, and 82 gr of H4831 in my 24" barrel I got only 3009 fps (three-shot average); in fact, I haven't gotten close to 3180 out of my 24" barrel using any loading of H4831.   I have gotten that velocity using "hot" charges of other powders.

[aka Hunter]

I disagree regarding the honest MOA resulting in confident vital hits at 500.  If you do the math, that means a minimum of 5" at 500 and that is without the nut behind the bolt factor or the wind...etc.  If you hold dead center of the lungs, you could hit them high or too far back with a 5" plus group.

I agree that a 1" group @ 100 yds should be a 5" group @ 500 yds; however, I'm not sure about your last sentence above -- but, I may not know what I'm talking about.

It strikes me that you're saying that a MOA rifle may miss by 5" @ 500 yds (assuming the "nut" and the wind don't affect the things)?  Presumably the crosshairs are centered in the group; thus, it seems that the outer edge of the group should be 2-1/2" from POA @ 500 yds? If so, it seems that a dead-center-of-the-lungs aim @ 500 yds with a MOA rifle could NOT fail -- it should miss the POA by no more than 2-1/2" (assuming the "nut" and the wind don't affect things).

[drypowder]

Hi reggart.
The powders i have been using are the RL 22, IMR 7828, H4831 they are shoot great groups, sppeds were consistant to the manuals through my crony, The best for me was the RL 22 then the IMR 7828 but then again it may have been just me. Any of them i would reccommend, but then not all guns are the same what works good in one may not in another. As far as 5" at 500 you but the cross hair where it should be 5" off the mark unlass you hit under or over the animal will drop. If a buck appears to be broad side and is actually slightly turned the distance from lead end of the lungs to tail end of the lungs will increase. if you hit slightly high there is the spine a little ahead the main veins from heart and lungs a little ahead and low the heart area. Even if yuo slightly miss alung and hit a rib i have seen the bone fragments take out a lung. If you don't use a range finder 500 and 525 will be a far great differance, but then i do believe that you are using a range finder. Its just my opinion and some of my experience that i have had shooting stone sheep and above alpine mulies. also when there is no wind at your feet shooting across a bowl at 500 plus does not mean that there is no wind over there. Take care hope some of this helps.

[dubyam]

I'll weigh in on the MOA rifle consideration for shooting at longer ranges.  I trust certain guns of mine out to 500yds.  Others, I know better, and limit to anywhere from 200yds for my 30-30WCF to 400yds for a couple of bolt guns that just aren't quite up to a 500yd shot.  In some cases, it's energy, in some cases it's accuracy.  Knowing your rifle and load will eliminate as much of the variability as possible.  It helps to know your own ability, also.

Hunter, you're correct in your assessment regarding group size.  I'd be happy to shoot deer or elk (or anything else of comparable vital sizes) at any distance I could confidently and consistently put three shots into 5" in field conditions.  If that distance is 300yds or 3000yds, it matters not.  Put one within a 5" diameter circle centered on the vitals, with enough downrange energy, and you'll be eating good every time.  If you're considering the "nut and the wind," then you have to consider that the rifle is not a consistent MOA rifle at that distance with that shooter, and the discussion is moot.

But, to the original poster (reggart), it sounds like you know the limits of your confidence, and if you need a half-moa rifle to be confident at 500yds on game, then by all means go make it happen.  I suspect that 300 in your collection is well capable of that sort of accuracy, if you can shoot it well.  I wouldn't waste a bunch of money on a custom job until you spend some time getting comfortable at the range and learning how to shoot that particular rifle (as all guns have 'personality' and shoot slightly different).  Once you do, and you get a good handload put together, you should be fine, and I bet you get it to .5-.75moa consistently.  If you can do that, from field positions off sticks or a bipod, you'll be fine.