Spike Camp

Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant

styx86

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2007, 06:20:13 PM »
 I don't understand why politicians want to take firearms from honest hard working taxpayers. Don't they relize what that would do to the economy. Hunters are one of the largest consumers of ammo,license,duckstamps,permits,. You name it we buy it. and not only that if they take that right from us who will be the only ones left to have them. In my opinion you would be taking the honest working american and turning them into an outlaw as well. Cause I don't know of anyone who is wiling to give up there gun freely. I can't see myself leaving my home unprotected for those who might wish to harm me or my family. I apologize for what I say but it just makes my blood boil to even think of what may happen if something like that would come about. The laws already work for the common criminal as it is.  WHAT'S NEXT ??????

 >:(   
« Last Edit: December 09, 2007, 06:22:22 PM by Jerry »

WalkswithWind

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2007, 08:48:09 PM »
"From my cold dead hands", "When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns", and of course "Fear the Goverment that fears your guns". People laugh when these sayings are spoken. Stop and think about it. Most that laugh are either 1)gun banners, or 2) ignorant of the facts, or 3) both. We as lawful persons that own and use guns must stay calm, polite, and determand. We must teach those around us both U.S. and world history. When govts. oppress and denigh the people the right to arms for protection of self, family and country. That is when those people become subjects and give up citizenship. That is when freedom dies. That is when oppression begins. That is the state of world affairs in most every country in the world except THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Sudgested readings, The Constitution of the United States, The Federalist Papers, The Monroe Doctren, The Bill of Rights, and lets not forget Common Sense- The Rights Of Man. If you dont have these books check out the public library. If they are not there buy them from a book store and call, wright your legislature and complain LOUDLY! If you belong to the NRA good, these books can be aquired from them. If not join. I'll get off the soap box now, keep your powder dry and hold your head high.
P>S> please excuse my spelling -but you get the point.

styx86

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2007, 10:27:31 PM »
     I used to believe that we voted for the politician that would do the best job for us as we watched for what they campaigned and if it better our needs and stand for this country believes. But time after time I have noticed that they preach one thing and do another. So some part of me believes no matter who you vote in that they're are going to lean towards the masses. So If it comes down to it. Build a bunker and bury them deep. And as Bill said it KEEP YER POWDER DRY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I smell another revolution coming if they try to ban firearms. Cuz I just don't see millions of people leaving thier homes unprotected. I can't lay faith in our elected officials because they forgot where they came from. They would rather rub elbows with rich people and drink champange with their pinky in the air with there nose as well. Then listen to the people who really make this country run. And bless those who went to foriegn countries to fight even though it seems pointless sometimes I know we started out with good intentions but whens enough going to be enough. It seems kinda hypocritical to take guns from us but won't think twice about send thousands of soldiers to fight on foriegn soil. Well I've ranted enough for one night. Till next time  >:( >:( >:(           

TheSollyLama

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2008, 01:46:14 AM »
I've been an on again, off again member of the NRA. I'm not as impressed with them as some people here seem to be. So let me play devil's advocate for just a minute.

First- far and away the biggest argument I hear for the NRA is based on what's called a Slippery Slope Argument. While some slipper slopes have a modicum of truth behind them, they all rely on fear mongering more than evidence.
Example- gov't wants your guns, if the NRA wasn't there, they'd already have them.

Well, possibly but not altogether as simple as wiping out one of the fundamental rights given in the Bill of Rights. So on this, delaying tactic describes the NRA better than anything.

So basically we're only delaying. Not winning.

Worse- the trend isn't getting better- the best the NRA can claim is slowing it down, but certainly no real progress has been made either. Unless you count delaying something as a victory.

Further, I've seen the NRA absent on several gun issues, at least locally to me. For example a couple years back a gentleman carried a shotgun into the town meeting here. Totally legal, he hurt no one and simply excersized his rights. They called the SWAT team and eventually the city just passed No Gun laws for pretty much every public venue.
That is a blatant attack on your right to carry. Instead of saying so, they just mark off 99% of creation to firearms. This is little different than simply banning them. Yet it is increasing daily with no signs of letting up. Soon, the Right to Bear Arms will only include inside your own home.

Concealed carry permits. Another pet peeve of mine the NRA seems to support- and even profit from by offering the classes required to get it.

Why am I suddenly subject to a FEE for excersizing what is a RIGHT under the constitution? That's what it is. I am afforded a right, but to excersize that right costs me money. The 2nd Amendment makes no statement on HOW I can and cannot bear arms, only that I can.
So a concealed carry permit is simply a way of taxing a right. And the NRA supports it. Maybe there is enough money in the classes, but in the end it's supporting a restriction on what should be a freedom to begin with.

That's two examples off the top of my head. The concealed permit is one issue I think the NRA is way on the wrong side of, probably cause it makes money somewhere. Until you do something to lose a right, then you shouldn't be subject to restricting it.

Lastly, the very image of firearms in the country is a PR battle the NRA is losing badly. When a guy walks into a town meeting doing nothing but excersizing a right given to him in one of the original US documents- and the reaction is utter panic and the deployment of the SWAT team- something is fundamentally wrong with the public's perception of firearms.
Now this isn't the fault of the NRA. Perhaps the fault of gun owners for not carrying guns openly at all times. Familiararity would do alot do improve the image of guns. As it is, we've gone from a time a hundred years ago when the sight of men packing revolvers in town was nothing to even notice- to a full on SWAT deployments for one guy that carried his shotgun to a town meeting that probably had people with guns in attendance since it's inception.
So while I can't blame the NRA for people not being used to people with guns, it is a big part of the NRA's expenses to improve the image of guns to America. Perhaps a bit more than the NRA can handle. So then you must ask if that is the right organization for the job?

Overall, I think they're a good bunch. Would we be worse off today without them than with them? Probably. Everyone needs a lobbyist in DC these days. But relying on Slippery Slope arguments is not a strong foundation. And on a couple issues- the NRA is either doing little or nothing---or simply losing and in need of a new tactic.
While I'm not panning the organization, I am saying that they are losing. Supporting them is basically losing SLOWER. Whether it's an institutional issue, or whatever- the NRA isn't getting it done.

But I simply can't offer an alternative, really. The NRA is pretty much the monopoly holder. Even if I thought they were completely off the mark- there just isn't any other real game in town. If you think the NRA is wrong or misguided, as I do with their support of CCW permits- then where do I turn?

I say lobbyists certainly have their purpose. But this group of them is not winning. So to claim it's victory merely to have your rights eroded more slowly doesn't inspire me with support. Slippery Slope arguments don't carry alot of weight on their own.

WalkswithWind

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2008, 03:58:00 PM »
to TheSollyLama, and all others, I can not and will not argue your point. It is well thought out and stated.In fact I almost compleatly agree, but still insist that as a gun toting peoples we must and have the responcibilty to teach those around us. Those who have been brain washed into thinking that guns are animated and evil. We KNOW that simply is not true and we know it to our bones. We who use these tools need to lead by example. Let the NRA be the loby in DC, and start a grass root type movement in our locals. Call, wright, and other wise let our elected officals know how we feel about our rights. Remember we elected these people to work for us. If they dont, fire them. I fear that we as a Nation have become complacent and are going the way of European restricted  socialism, and this scares me alot. As stated earler on this subject me, my dad, my brother, cousins, uncles, and grand-parents did not fight and bleed for this to happen. I belive in this country and our Constitution and our way of life.

Keep Your Powder Dry

albie1

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2008, 09:00:19 PM »
Bill,you are so right,this coming election is a scary thing,there are so many braindead soccor moms out there that seem to think HillarySlut is the best thing since air,we could be in deep doo doo after this election.........

WalkswithWind

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2008, 10:29:22 PM »
First things first. I am not Bill. 2nd we can get our point accross with out being nasty, even if I agree with you. We dont have the best seliction this go around this time, but in my opinon, for what its worth Uncle Huck might be the best bet. The rest on the Rep side are shakey and on the Dem side are down right scarry. At least Huck came from the poor side of town. I think he rembers what it was like. And he is a real shooter not just someone that says so to get in office. There are some points I think he could be stronger on, but today you can't have everythimg. Well those are my thoughts this time around.

Keep Your Powder Dry

TheSollyLama

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2008, 02:38:29 PM »
Well I've said before- I think each and every one of the candidates are total idiots. Both sides are equally worthless.

On a single issue like guns, perhaps you can raise one above the other. But in any larger context, they're all morons.

Huckabee? Come on, this idiot can't even claim a high school level education in science, as he denies evolution. A freaking 11th grader has a firmer understanding of human development than a guy trying to be president. That's nothing short of pathetic.

More importantly- it show that huck is absolutely willing to ignore reality to push a dogma. He doesn't use evidence and logic to make his decisions. This calls into question his ability to lead anything but a theocracy where science and evidence come in second to dogma.

It's no different than the shoddy 'science' of banning guns means less crime.

It's not evidence driven, but rather an Argument from Emotion, another logical fallacy. If these people cannot separate dogma from evidence based reality, then they have no business running anything, much less the free world.

I'd no sooner vote for an evolution denier than I would vote for a scientologist.

WalkswithWind

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2008, 07:40:22 PM »
Hay Solly,
            I aint gonna fight with you. I think we can get along. And again I can agree that all the candidates have their idiocy's, but I for one have to play my part or shut-up. And I cant shutup, I like to bitch too much. Also as I said even Huck has his down side...
          As I said I think we could get along. If my wallet wasnt so damn thin, I like to get together for a dog hunt or some such fun frivolity. Until next time

Keep Your Powder Dry

AGraff

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2008, 06:46:40 PM »
Well that is interesting;   Please inform everyone what evidence there is to support evolution, since your sceince education is so high.  keep in mind;  Charles Darwin who championed the theory of Evolution acknowledged that there lacked any trace of transitional forms an one of his own theory's fatal flaws.  if humans evolved from apes the fossil records should reveal a multitude of transitional forms.   So what have sceintist found?  Nebraska man, piltdown man, java man, neanderthal man and lucy.  Every one of them have been disproven scientifically.  In fact, find any one musuem today on earth which actually has a fossil record which proves evolution, and you will be on every news channel worldwide and have discovered something no scientist today has.
explain where are sense of mortality comes from?
How does life come from non-life?
How can an effect come from no cause?
Where did the first life in the universe come from? 

Sorry to say,  I think this country is all about free speech and if someone has something they disagree with about the NRA, they should say so, so that all of us can hear that view point.  We also have every right to disagree.  But not degrade someone , no matter who it is.  I don't agree with everything the NRA has done.   On the other hand, I know that wether I agree with them or not, they are serving a big part in keeping my right to bear arms.  The NRA is no different than us, we all have issues.
Also, I would be very gracious to send you a book on the subject of Evolution, for free.  I mean that sincerely.    And Yes I believe in Almighty God, and his Son Jesus Christ.   Side note challenge: Ask the president of the NRA what he thinks about evolution.

scott357

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2008, 07:09:58 PM »
I must agree! As a side note Hillary and Obama both support federal gun registrations. My info comes from the February 08 issue of American Hunter. I would encourage everyone to visit www.nraila.org

JBond

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2008, 03:08:17 AM »
The national Democrats are anti-gun almost to the person.  Not only are their presidential candidates anti-gun, but their House and Senate leadership are too.  Unfortunately on the Republican side McCain is not pro-gun and Romney as a governor has a less than stellar record supporting the Second Amendment.  Romney is now claiming to be a friend of the gun-owners?  Romney has flip-flopped on every issue.  He is a political chameleon who changes with the political winds.  Even though McCain is not pro-gun, I can respect him as a man an a patriot for his stellar service to this greatest nation in history, but I could not support him.   Bash Huckabee all you want about his brain-power, but he has the brains to be a solid supporter of the Second Amendment.  Do you all remember when Smith and Wesson capitulated to the Clinton Administration to settle out of court, and agree on nearly all of the outlandish charges brought in the lawsuits?  NY Attorney General Elliot Spitzer sent a letter to elected officials across the country urging them to support the deal.  Huckabee responded as follows: "Gun manufacturers make the Second Amendment a viable right rather than some theoretical proposition. I will not abuse my authority as governor to pursue their demise or dictate their business practices through coercion.  I will not seek the capitulation of firearm manufacturers through the use of asinine lawsuits or the doling out of taxpayer-funded government contracts.  I regret that you feel either of these tactics to be worthwhile endeavors."   Governor Huckabee also signed a law prohibiting frivolous lawsuits against gun makers and eased restrictions on concealed carry permit holders in Arkansas.  Governor Huckabee's has a pro-Second Amendment track record.  Where his views on Eveolution may never become law because of Congress, we need a pro-gun President to veto any anti-gun legislation passed by a Democrat controlled Congress.   I have my questions about Huckabee, he is not the best by far, but he is pro-gun and that is why I will back him.

 

TheSollyLama

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2008, 11:38:06 AM »
The problem there is voting on a single issue. A pro-gun stance is great an all but that is but a single issue is hardly something to vote for a president. It's certainly a core issue for me- but can't be the only thing you choose a candidate on.

As for evidence for evolution...you can't be serious. 11th grade level education- try it out. Transitional fossils arguments are oh.....30 or more years out of date. Obviously not up on logical fallacies- but that entire post is an Argument from Ignorance- and again wouldn't stand muster in a high school debate class, much less intellectual conversation.
Don't think I've heard someone seriously pan education before..but there's always a first time I guess. Sad.


More importantly it shows a dedication to making decisions based on dogma, not evidence. The anti-gun lobby doesn't use science or evidence to support their anti-gun dogma. Rejecting one of the most solidly supported branches of science in favor of a dogma is no different. Whether you agree or not with Huckabee's fantasy- he has demonstrated that reality is not what drives his decision making process. That is a dangerous precedent to set.

Crack a book....learn. Imagine that....

JBond

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2008, 03:19:38 AM »
I take great offense to your response.  Nowhere in my post did I say education was a bad thing or knock education.  Talk about logical facilicies.  Try your ad hominem attacks.  THAT wouldn't pass a high school debate.  I concentrated on the Second Amendment because it is of supreme importance to me and this is "Weatherby Nation" - a firearms board - full of pro-gun people.

My point about Huckabee and Evolution was that no matter where he stood on Eveolution, if he wanted to abolish the teaching of it, it would not have enough votes for it to pass one of the two political caucuses, let alone one of the chambers of Congress.  We are able to formulate our own ideals and beliefs and disagree in the political arena.  Look at Ron Paul, he is a very educated man, a doctor, who is out there on the fringe on certain issues, and he gets nowhere in Congress on those issues.   Does that make him stupid?  Nowhere did I deny the scienctific evidence of Evolution, or that Evolution isn't real.  I wasn't even arguing one way or the other on Evolution.  There are many well-educated people out there though who do deny Evolution because of religious beliefs.  You are right when you say it isn't evidence-driven, it is emotion-driven; faith-based.   You have professors who don't believe in Evolution who are highly-educated and intelligent.  They have far-more than the 11th-grade education that you state people who don't believe in Evolution have.  That doesn't make them ignorant.  They choose to believe in faith over science on the development of the world.  I would dare to guess these men and women who have that value system are far more-educated than you are.   Yes I know these these men and women who deny Evolution are not running for President like Huckabee is.

You take an ad hominem approach to argumentation.   It is easy to make personal attacks.  I'll bet if Mitt Romney, a Havard-educated attorney, was asked about Evolution, because of this Mormon values, very well may deny Evolution.  And no, not all Mormons or extremely religous people deny Evolution. 

You attack Huckabee on his denial of Evolution, is there any other issue you disagree with him on?  Or do you deny him on a single isssue?  Isn't that as single-issue as my pro-gun stance?  You attack me for being single-issue.   I contrated my post on the Second Amendment because this is a gun message board, but I DO think the Second Amendment makes all the others possible.    Cliche yes, just like the saying that if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns.  I believe that statement too.  Huckabee is a fiscal conservative and I agree with him on that too.  For moral reasons I support his pro-life stance.  We can open up a huge can of worms arguing abortion, but why?  There are more reasons that the gun issue on why I back Huckabee.  Maybe I stated it poorly, but I don't care what Huckabee believes on Evolution because he won't go anywhere with it, just like Paul does on his fringe issues.  Who is to say that he would try to push that agenda anyways?

You said all the candidates are idiots.  What do you do, not vote?  I wish I had a better choice than Huckabee, but I don't.  Huckabee does put his foot in his mouth at times, but to me he is the best choice of the bunch.  There is only one candidate you will every agree with 100% and that is if you ran yourself. 

Your signature on this board is home of the free, BECAUSE of the brave.  I couldn't agree more with that.  As I said I think McCain is a man of good character and I respect him so much for being one of those brave.  Those brave fought and died so we could vote and participate in the electoral process.  Or since all the candidates are idiots are you doing nothing?  Education and intelligence is important, but so is character. Character is not evidence driven, it is morals driven.  That is why I can't support Romney.  His flip-flopping to me is a lack of character  There are many reasons to support a candidate and to me the gun issue is obviously important.  I think Huckabee is a man of good character, and this is othing in his make-up that would make me believe otherwise.

Maybe you should read Washingtons's Farewell Address:
"Of all the dispositions and habits, which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens. The mere Politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connexions with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths, which are the instruments of investigation in Courts of Justice? And let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle."

According to your agrgument this would be dogma and of course we couldn't support Washington as President.  Religion is not evidence-based.  It is emotion-based and according you you we couldn't have that.   And throw out the Declaration of Independence because it asks that we rely on devine Providence.
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."  Devine Providence is not logic-based, so I guess Jefferson failed your test too.  Our Founding Fathers were very religious men who used these beliefs to govern.  Our Pledge of Allegience has "one nation under God".   Definately not logic-based there too.  When our President is sworn in he has his hand oon what book?  Could it be a bible?Maybe you should take your own advice and crack open an US History book and read it.  Learn.   Imagine that.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 05:01:14 AM by JBond »

WalkswithWind

Re: Bill T.'s Pro NRA Rant
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2008, 12:32:22 AM »
to JBOND;
           Well said old son, well said.

Keep Your Powder Dry