Spike Camp

Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2012, 10:37:35 AM »
Thanks for the reply Ed, I for one like the finish on the new S2, its a nice even smooth finish like on my Mark V sporter. Even though I dont care for the plastic follower in my Mark V's, its not the worst thing in the world, but I absolutely will not care for a plastic trigger guard.
Troy

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2012, 10:43:57 AM »
Thank's Ed, It has cleared up a few thing's such as the follower going back to 2009. I haven't read a post about a broken one...
O C hunter

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2012, 03:53:10 PM »
Thank you, Ed. There is no question, that you & Weatherby are the class act of the firearms business.
                                                                               Jim

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2012, 04:23:05 PM »
Ed, your well thought out and reasoned response further reinforces why I'm a big fan of Weatherby.  Thanks!  We gun fanatics can be a bit finicky at times.     
"All you need for happiness is a good gun, a good horse, and a good wife".
Daniel Boone

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #34 on: January 04, 2012, 04:24:38 PM »
I don't think the 2-3 oz. that a composite follower might offer in weight savings is worth the relaibility of a steel follower- if the weight savings is really that much at all.  Thats about the difference if you carry your magazine full to capacity or maybe with only 2-3 rounds.

No one here likes to have to send their firearm back in for service whether it is a $5 item, or a $500 fix. I'm all for better reliability, and glad you are checking in to see the comments and ideas from your customers.

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #35 on: January 04, 2012, 05:22:18 PM »
Does anyone here, have a documented instance of failure with a polymer magazine follower?
Further has anyone had a failure with a steel follower?

Even further can anyone show me a statistical comparison of steel vs polymer magazine follower performance across a broad spectrum of  similar environmental conditions?

Lastly, certainly everyone here realizes the superiority of particular polymers (they are not all the same) against particular steel or metallic conformations and vice versa.
MagPul makes polymer mags for the AR platforms used by our military in the harshest possible environments, for goodness sakes.
I don't here anyone questioning the alloy composition of any of the steel parts being used in our rifles, i,e. I prefer my stainless steel to x% of chromium or x% of vanadium against x% of carbon etc.Why Not?

We should all agree that this is an aesthetic argument.
For me...form follows function. If it works I like it and I'll use it
.If it breaks due to normal life cycle wear and tear (as all materials do except for maybe Krypton :) then I'll get it fixed.
If it doesn't work. due to design flaw and the company will not stand behind it.I will discard or replace and not return.
Having said all that, I will accept proven materials on my workhorse rifles as long as they perform (Vanguard).
"The way to hunt is for as long as you live against as long as their is such an animal"-Hemingway

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2012, 06:19:06 PM »
I've got more than a handful of those Magpul's and P-Mags for my AR-10.

They are great, but admittedly about 3x thicker than the followers on the Weatherby's.

I've had one composite follower fail and that was in a Wilson Mag for my 1911. It split right down the seam in the follower and Wilson sent me 3 followers for free.  Who knows how many rounds that magazine had ran through it, but the pistol had ~ 20K rounds using only 8 Wilson magazines. Thats 2500 rounds per mag if they were equally distributed- which in all fact they probably were close to that.

I've had no magazines with steel followers fail, but I use the Wilson's in matches because they are so much smoother. If I found a smooth magazine with a steel follower I'd use it instead.

I doubt the average person here will run 2500 rounds through their rifle. I've hit it pretty hard with my Vanguard .308 and have still yet to run through the first 500 new Winchester cases I bought for it.

Composite has done OK for me I guess considering the amount I shoot, but I'd rather have steel.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2012, 06:23:24 PM by coreydelong »

Chip

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Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2012, 06:21:29 PM »
Depends on what you call a failure I guess. For me, if it sticks and I don't get a fresh round in the chamber after I work the bolt it failed.  It didn't break but it didn't work either.
That's what happened to one of the members here during the first range trip. I don't think he called up a notary or anything to swear out a statement lol  Now that kind of stuff usually goes away after a few rounds through a rifle but it's still a failure to feed. I have never had a failure to feed in any of my bolt action rifles. All of those have steel followers except for my newest and it is a T3 lite, it has a plastic box detachable magazine.  It's a three shot straight line mag and it feeds like a dream.  If it doesn't Id have to try another cheesie platic mag cause I'm pretty sure that's all they ever made for them.  I'm old school and my thoughts on plastic are these. It's really great stuff. It's great for keeping leftover meatloaf in and it makes good milk jugs.  Barreled actions and their parts should be made from steel. Yea it's lite and it does make for a pretty weather resistant stock if it's the right plastic but I still don't like it.  I can live with it when I have to. Looks like If I want an S2 I have to so there we are.      

  

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2012, 06:24:14 PM »
Guy's I don't get  what all the fuss is about? I've owned my 240 Wby Mag in A Mark 5 Ultra Lite chassie for 6 year's now, and only today noticed A "plastic" for lack of A better word, follower in the magazine! I bought this rifle new as I said 6 year's ago, and the good Lord himself only knows how many time's this action has been cycled without A single problem! If you are having A problem Get A hold of  Weatherby. Those metal follower's are very cheap, I'm sure one of the old one's will fit the new gun's, heck they might even give ya one. One thing is for sure if ya don't let them know your unhappy, they can't help you! EVERY time I've called them over the year's, and it's been many as I own 8 of them, not once have they failed to help, they have comped me some rather big ticket item's just to make A satisfied customer. Or you might do as dubyam said and touch up the edges to make sure you have clearance and I'll bet it's problem solved. Again as I said my MK5 has one and it does and alway's has,work fine...GOOD SHOOTIN TO YA...Jerry
 WBY MAG MAN

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2012, 08:18:59 PM »
IMR:You started this. ;D Now Everyone is worn to a frazzle digging out hidden guns from under couches,beds,closets,and maybe even a few from safes,to look for plastic parts.No telling how  much oil had to be used to get finger prints off of non plastic parts to prevent rusting.I think you should again try to get in touch with Weatherboy  in China and see if you can't get them to come up with some aftermarket metal parts for us.LOL
Ed:Thanks for your response and reasons.
Roger
Faster horses,younger women,older whiskey,and more money.

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2012, 09:17:27 PM »
As A side note,I ment no disrespect to anyone. I was shooting the wife's 240 today and was cleaning it afterword's and noticed the follower wasn't steal and thought about this post. Then I had two get my 2 cent's worth in. Good Shootin All...Jerry
 WBY MAG MAN

Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2012, 09:27:22 PM »
Jerry:I am sure no one took it that way.I sure didn't know the Mark V had the plastic.But Ed mentioned it was a was a weight saving measure so it makes sense for the UL in that way.
Roger
Faster horses,younger women,older whiskey,and more money.

petey

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Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2012, 04:40:53 AM »
I have no problem with the "composite" part in the short term.  As Greyrider said, show me a study about the failure rates of the composite resin.... that's my issue.  We all know what metal does.  I DO acknowledge that plastics, composites, polymers.... whatever we call all that suff, has come a long way.  But how many of you have pulled out an old plactic or composite item from storage only to find its brittle, or fragile, or in some cases deformed? My hunting blind, headlamps, preditor caller, backpack, treestand... all only a few years old, each have plastic composite parts that have failed over time due to my hunting conditions, which really arent extreme. 

That's what concerns me...  in 30yrs will I be able to get a new part to replace it?  Yes the military uses these types of materials, but they also have a large bankroll and parts surplus.  If the parts start to fail with time, they change to a new line of weapons. 

Is the plactic follower going to keep me from buying Weatherbys?  Nope,not at all.  I applaud the efforts to make the rifles lighter and stronger. I worry about the competitive pricing, however.  I'd rather pay a little more than see price effective parts of unknown long term performance.

Roger, I dont know about Chinese aftermarket Weatherboy parts...they'll be sure to point out that lead is metal, not plastic. ;D

imr4198

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Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2012, 06:11:37 AM »
Fellow Weathbyterians,
   I get accused of being a fossil, but it is sad to see the downfall of W------, our great American gun company.
   Of course, I am talking about Winchester.  The company starting cheaping up their lineup in the middle sixties.  Then like a mad dog spinning around in a circle biting itself to death, they lost their minds in 1964.  America's Rifle, the legendary Model 70 was turned into one of the ugliest rifles on the market.  Everybody understood that it was cost-cutting.  Then they would swear.  The same thing happened with their shotgun line and their 22s. 
   The company limped along (with enthusiasts and former customers swearing all the way) as they came out with one cheap clunker after another.  Lots of plastic parts too.  Carefully engineered from the finest resins, or not.  The company failed several times, and somehow would get an injection of money and limp along a while longer.  Some of the later rifles were good guns too.  The 94-22 was always a good rifle. 
   But some how everybody still looked sideways at Winchesters.  They still thought of them as cheap.  It's hard to get your reputation back after you get caught singing drunk and nekkid on the court house steps.  Might just be one wild night, but things will never be the same.
   The Winchester rifles and shotguns themselves became part of a two tier pricing anomaly.  The old ones sold high.  Couldn't give away the new ones.  I saw a couple of Winchester 94-22s priced at $750 each the other day.  Also a Winchester 190 that nobody would even look at for $100. 
   Vanguard is a low-cost rifle.  I get that.  I don't have a problem with that.  If you want a nicer Vanguard you can buy a walnut stocked one.  Good.  However, the Vanguard never was a cheap gun.  The rifle was solid.  It didn't need anything replaced by aftermarket parts.  Sure, they are heavy.  They don't have to be, but how much weight is saved by a plastic follower?  Let's see.
   I whipped the steel follower off a rifle and weighed it.  It weighed 348.6 grains, let's round it off and call it 3/4 oz.  I didn't have a plastic follower, but even if it weighed nothing which is impossible, all the weight saved is 3/4 oz.  One round of 30-06 ammo (150gr Nosler) weighed 411.2 grains or almost an ounce.  Since the rifle with scope weighs in at 9-1/2 pounds (152 ounces), the significance of saving 3/4 ounce (at most) is nonsense.  If some of you feel like it, take a plastic follower off and plunk it down on your reloading scale and report the weight.
   The plastic part that works fine today, may not be so robust in 20 years.  Vanguards are not disposable.  The rifle bought today should serve for your grandchildren who are today playing with Annoy-Me Elmo.  I know the steel parts will be just as good in a hundred years as they are today. 
   Some of you may remember when Brad Ruddell was taking heat for the new trigger system on the S2.  Members wanted to know why Weatherby was wasting money putting a more expensive trigger with a 2 stage pull on the Vannie.  Brad said the price was only a matter of pennies more.  I refuse to believe there are more than pennies difference between the fabricated steel follower and a plastic one.  If you buy many gun parts, you may find out as I did, that the plastic replacement parts are often MORE expensive than metal ones. 
   Glocks and ARs.  I have owned both.  I knew what they were when I bought em.  Magazines fail, you chuck them.  The parts in a bolt gun will be there as long as the rifle lasts.  I also will not accept plastic parts on a Weatherby.  I accept the plastic stock.  Walnut is available if I want it.  I tried and failed to locate a steel follower for a Canadian member who knew what plastic did in sub-zero weather.  None out there that I could locate.
   It is time to rethink this thing before the Vanguard just becomes another cheap piece of ordnance like the 1965 Winchesters, Savage Axis (Edge), Remington 770, Marlin XL7, etc.  Plastic followers are just the beginning.  If you like those, get ready for a nice plastic triggerguard housing, or a poly trigger assembly.     
imr4198

petey

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Re: Fixing the Plastic Vanguard Follower
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2012, 06:33:53 AM »
SIGH... i'll probably regret this, but in the name of science here it is.  But to make it worse I'm going to skew the data by comparing apples to bananas..... My reloading stuff is all packed up so I used my digital kitchen scale so you may  have to do some conversions to make your point.... also I weighted a long action .30-06 stainless follower and a .243 composite follower.  here it goes

.30-06 stainless follwer  0.80 oz or 22g
.243 composite follower 0.25oz or 6g


BTW, I did get a Rem 770 for $250 when they first came out.... loads of plactic... an accident wating to happen.  That is my foul weather, swamp tromping, push thru the briars, whoops i dropped it in the mud rifle.  I knew what it was when I bought it.  CHEAP.  I like it a lot. It's very accurate.  But it aint a Weatherby.  I buy sporters cuz I HATE plactic stocks (not that they dont have their place!)