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Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...

Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2012, 01:54:10 PM »
Same bullet size, yes. But 10mm rounds have more powder behind em. Which means more velocity, and of course kick. The .40 also has a shorter case and over all length. So they're not interchangeable like 7.62 x 59 and .308.

zonie

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Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2012, 04:03:12 PM »
Without going into a long history story behind the 10mm auto.   The 10mm uses a large pistol primer vs the 40 cal small pistol primer,   the 10mm is rated at a higher operating pressure,  it's a longer heavier made case,  both use a .400 bullet diameter and .401 for cast bullets.    The 10mm is definately more powerful.   The 10mm was initally adopted by the FBI after the 1986 Miami shootout where the FBI went looking for a more powerful cartridge,  so powerful in fact some of their women and smaller men could not control them under rapid fire so they down loaded the 10mm  into what was called an FBI lite load.   Smith & Wesson being a very smart company came out with a shortened case with some slight modifications called the 40 S & W,   essentially the same bullet weights in a shorter case as the 10mm lite load and the 40 cal was born.   Anything the 40 cal can do the 10mm can do better with two exceptions and that's  it's cycle rate of the shorter 40 cal is a little faster, and gun grip frames can be shortened just slightly for people with smaller hands.  You can download a 10mm easily to full power equiv of the 40 cal and it's possible to download either even farther.  The flip side you can never attain the more powerful  10mm loads in any 40 cal.  The 10 is a more versatile caliber in that regards.    The 40 is a great police caliber the 10mm can be used for hunting up to deer sized animals.  If I really wanted I could load a 200 grain  right at 1300 fps in a 10mm.  a 40 cal or 45 acp might get 1100 or  1125 fps with the same bullet weight.   With the 10mm you have the option to not shoot full power loads and still maintain the same velocity of a hot 40 cal.   

Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2012, 04:46:22 PM »
Thats a nice looking pair there Marshal. I dont want to steal your thread, but Im thinking about getting a revolver. I had a Ruger Vaquero .357 in the past, I like revolvers and am considering another one. Looking at a S&W, either a 686 357 or 629 44 with a 6" barrel. I want your guys opinions on the two calibers. What Id like to do with it, is to shoot and mess around with it to get handy with it, to have at home for a sense of security. The .357 isnt bad, but I dont know if Id care for the recoil with the 44. I doubt Id be very concerned about ammo cost, cause I dont think I'd shoot it that much. What do you guys think about the two.
Troy

Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2012, 05:39:25 PM »
Meh, doesn't matter to me what twists and turns the thread takes. I don't suppose there's a local range you could rent one or the other from and actually try em out? Best piece of advice I can give for a handgun purchase is make sure it fits your hand comfortably and that you can handle the caliber you've selected. .357 does have one advantage though, you can run .38 SP through it if the recoil's an issue, and makes for cheaper practice.

Either one would be suitable for home defense in my opinion. Can't say I've ever seen a .357 or .44 accused of being under powered. Really it depends on what you're comfortable with and what'll fit into your ammo budget. Beyond that proficiency with the weapon is the key. Learn to shoot it well, and practice like you're in a fight cause you'll fight like you practice.

Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2012, 06:13:10 PM »
I have to commend Zonie on his post, you really know your history about the 10mm.  As always Zonnie it's great to read your posts.

I can't say with absolute certainty if you can shoot .40 S&Ws out of a 10mm or not but you can rest a sure if my life depended on it I would do it.  I would think you could since, now this is providing my memory serves me right, the only case diamention that is different is the over all case and cartridge length.  There is a line of reasoning that you can safely shoot any shorter caliber from the parent caliber.  I'll make it simple, you can shoot .38 Specials out of a .357 Magnum, .44 Specials out of a .44 Magnum, ect but not the other way around.  I think the major problem you would run into using .40S&Ws in a 10mm is feeding since he .40 S&Ws are shorter. 

As for Ballistic's question of which is better for home defense between the .357 Magnum and the .44 Magnum I'd like to give a few things to consider.  The .44 Magnum does have more power and to go with it recoil, report, and muzzle flash.  Along with this comes the issue of over penetration, a major concern especially if you miss, which stastically odds are you will - don't feel bad it even happens to police very frequently, and have other family members in the house, neighbors close by.  Another thing to consider is how fast you can make a follow-up shot with the heavy recoil.  Don't get me wrong the .357 Magnum has these issues but not to the degree the .44 Magnum does.

Law enforcement in the United States has evolved over many years from the .38 Special to the two most common rounds, the first being the .40 S&W and secondly the 9mm.  Some prefer the higher magazine capacity of the 9mm (I carried one for years for this same reason) and others like the added power of the .40S&W (I also carried one and only lost 4 rounds per magazine).  Currently I'm carrying a .45 GAP (this decision has been made for me) which isn't a bad caliber but ideally if I had my choice I'd be carrying a 10mm, but that is a different topic.    In my career I've seen the results of numerous shootings.  I can't and won't give details but I will say this, you would be amazed by some of what popular calibers will do and won't.  The best advice I can give you is read all you can about both calibers, think about the issues I've mentioned, buy QUALITY DEFENSE AMMO ONLY and practice with it(it will shoot different than cheap practice ammo, buy a quality gun that fits you, and buy all means PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE with your gun and tactics.  The more you sweat in peace the less you bleed in war.
Nothing is better than a Weatherby, big bore magnum, or a Colt.

dubyam

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Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2012, 06:16:33 PM »
You can't shoot 40S&W in a 10mmAuto. Rimless handgun cartridges headspace on the case mouth, so the difference in length is mission-critical. The reason it works with 38Spl and 357Mag is the rim.
I believe this is a practical world, and in it I can count only on what I can earn.  Therefore I believe in work, hard work. - The Auburn Creed
The older I get, the less stock I place in what men say, and the more I place in what men do. - Andrew Carnegie

Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2012, 06:31:11 PM »
Have to agree with Dubyam. If they were revolver cartridges that might work, but auto loaders are a bit more finnicky when it comes to round dimensions.

Beyond that I think Chris pointed out everything I wanted to, but didn't.

Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2012, 07:26:55 PM »
As I said I am not sure about shooting the 40S&W out of a 10mm and will take Dubyam's and Marshal's words for it that you can not.  But I must say Marshal did remind me of something I forgot, Smith & Wesson did make a revolver in 10mm.  On that note I must ask, because I flat out don't know, can you shoot the 40S&W out of a 10mm REVOLVER?
Nothing is better than a Weatherby, big bore magnum, or a Colt.

Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2012, 07:45:41 PM »
Good question, up til now I thought all revolvers were rimfire designs...you might run into the same headspacing issue Dubyam was describing. Maybe he can weigh in on that one.

zonie

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Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2012, 08:06:46 PM »
If it were something like a life threatening situation yes a 40 cal will normally go bang out of a 10mm automatic pistol chamber,    whether it will cycle is a diferent story.    I've had people ask this same question face to face and the correct answer is NO.   What happens is the extractor usually catches the rim and holds it in place , and the firing pin drops shoving the case foreward and if the extractor is tight enough holding it in place it will fire.  If you are lucky it will shoot and no damage to the gun, otherwise the extractor will take the brunt of it and eventually break.    You really shouln't do it.  

There are a few revlovers like the Smith 610 is an example chambered in 10mm auto, and is a  very  good gun.   It uses moon clips and it doesn't matter if you shoot either 40 or 10mm in the same cylinder other than when shooting other shorter cases such as 38's in a 357, or 44 special in a 44 mag cylinder, or 45acp in revolvers with moon clips.     When shooting the shorter cases eventually what happens if you don't keep the cylinder clean is at the end of the shorter cases in the cylinder  it builds up lead or carbon and eventually when you try to insert the long case it won't chamber.    This happens when you shoot a lot.   Some times  for  action competition  using revolvers it's not uncommon for the guy's to really  shorten up the brass by trimming,  this helps during speed reloads and trying to index the cylinder and shoving longer cases in,  it takes a slightly longer time to reload the longer cases.  That's one reason you won't see guy's using semi-wad cutters and opt for round nose so they won't hang up in the cylinder.  

 

zonie

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Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2012, 08:52:56 PM »
Troy ,   You really can't go wrong with either   revolver model or  caliber.     You can always load down or use either 38 specials or 44 specials in the respective revolver. 

I'll throw a few things out there for thought.  If you ever decide to use the revolver for hunting larger game,  the 6 " barrel in probably better with more sighting radius than a 4 " barrel.   if you aren't going to hunt then a 4 " barrel is a little more useful to carry unless you are a big tall guy then a dangling 6 " + barrel isn't going to make a lot of difference.  If you drive in a car with a 6 + plus barrel in a side holster  it's a pain,  shorter is better .   5 " isn't a bad barrel length might be something to look at.   

There really isn't a whole lot a good heavy loaded 357 with heavy bullets can't do even on deer sized animals.   Just for plinking and playing a good 357 is a good way to go.   If you ever decide to hunt even elk with a handgun a 44 mag is adaquate for the task if you are close enough.  the downside with most 44's is they are heavy,   and if you went to a either a 357 or 44 in a lightweight frame with heavy loads  both can be a little more than most people care for when starting out.  Grips make a world of difference with revolvers,  one of the best is  finger groove Hogue rubber grips.   I'd look for some friends or a good shooting range and try a few and see what you like.  Whatever you buy make sure it has adjustable sights if you can,  it's so much easier to hit what you are aiming at longer ranges. 



 

Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2012, 05:31:43 AM »
Zonie, that was very interesting- many thanks!  Likewise, Chris, I very much appreciated your outlook.  I suppose that's why this is such a great forum.  ;)
Gentleman Hunter
"The one true passion never tarnished by modern times."
 

dubyam

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Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2012, 07:41:58 AM »
Obviously Ron beat me to the punch on moon clips and 10mm revolvers.  He's absolutely correct, as usual, also.

I really love the 10mm.  I keep thinking one of these days I'm going to come by a 10mm 1911 style pistol when I have the coin to make it mine, and be a happy camper.  I shot a Delta Elite about 20yrs ago when a very nice man at the next bench at the range offered to let me empty a magazine.  I was shooting a Glock 23 in 40S&W, so we swapped up for comparison.  He thought the Glock was "interesting" and would make an excellent carry gun.  It is, and it does.  I thought the Delta was just about the smoothest, finest piece of handgun machinery I'd handled up to that point, and the fact that even with max charge 180gr loads I was able to print a neat little 2.5" group at 20yds, proved it.  I've handled only a couple of handguns that were that smooth since.  Both were tuned 1911s.  I believe that gent said his had been "worked" by a gunsmith.

I saw where one can now buy a 10mm 1911 kit from Fusion for about $700 and then finish it out with small parts (trigger, safety, grip safety, etc.).  I suspect it would end up being more than a good Kimber Eclipse or other factory tuned production 10mm, by a couple hundred bucks, but then again, almost nobody is making a 10mm 1911 right now.  I think Kimber has dropped them entirely?

Anyway, thanks to all who posted to re-stoke this 10mm fire for me.  The wife will have you all on her 10 most wanted list now, unless I can hold out and not crack under interrogation.  Name, Rank, Serial Number...Name, Rank, Serial Number...Name, Rank, Serial Number...
I believe this is a practical world, and in it I can count only on what I can earn.  Therefore I believe in work, hard work. - The Auburn Creed
The older I get, the less stock I place in what men say, and the more I place in what men do. - Andrew Carnegie

Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2012, 08:52:01 AM »
Lol...I'll be sure to keep to watch my back in the near future.

badsection

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Re: Just because handguns don't get enough love around here...
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2012, 04:41:11 PM »
I really like your grips,Marshall. I have a set of Wilson Combat cocobolo grips on my 1911 Commander that are nice but not quite as pretty! I have a 1949 S&W .38 spl
 my dad left me with "factory " grips I see as my favorite handgun.  ;D