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free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle

free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« on: June 13, 2013, 09:28:43 PM »
new to the site, but I've owned my weatherby vanguard for about 10 years and it's been a great rifle.  I live in AZ and started shooting a bit more this summer and I'm feeling like my accuracy changes in the heat. and my fall hunts are pretty hot time and the barrel can be warm on first shot. 
Should I have a smith free float my barrel and bed the action?  I have a timney trigger and that was huge but I hunt in open country and shots are routinely 400 yrds plus.  I really want to dial in my accuracy.
If I was to free float an bed should I bother keeping the stock synthetic stock or get a replacement?  Thanks for the pointers

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2013, 09:41:16 PM »
Did you check to see if it already is free floated?  Keep in mind free floating does not allow the barrel to cool any faster.
Nothing is better than a Weatherby, big bore magnum, or a Colt.

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2013, 05:26:50 AM »
If you are going to free float the barrel and glass bed the action I would recommend getting a new stock. Most gunsmiths won't work on a factory synthetic stock. For an inexpensive option check out boyd's laminate stocks, I like the prairie hunter model. If you want something made out of fiberglass, etc look at the bell & carlson medalist. Good luck, let us know what you decide to do.
Isaac

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2013, 05:27:28 AM »
What groups are you getting when it is cold compared to hot,caliber,factory ammo,reloads?
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 05:43:52 AM by terminator »
Roger
Faster horses,younger women,older whiskey,and more money.

zonie

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Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2013, 09:00:12 AM »
I'm up in Show Low and it's been bouncing high 80's low 90's and in the valley two day's ago to get a boat part in Mesa,┬  110 degrees out and 116 in the black car until I could get the ac going, and we are not in July/Aug yet.┬  ┬  There are two issues down here in AZ┬  ammo and stock or a combination of both.┬  Hot ammo can definately raise pressures which┬  can cause┬  out of the norm┬  accuracy from what your gun is use to.┬ 

What's the caliber ,┬  ┬ do you handload or factory ammo ?

The guys are right Vanguard plastic stocks are pretty soft and tend to move around in the heat or a really hot barrel from shooting,┬  ┬  fiberglass and composite stocks┬  like a Bell & Carlson can move around also just not quite as much.┬  In this heat even the Bell & carlson I've had to re-bed┬  the whole action up 3 to 4 inches past the action recoil lug into the barrel channel then free float to get the stock stable-stiff enough for my liking.┬  One you do that it's pretty much done for life.┬  ┬  You can do the same with the synthetic Vanguard stock also but you may need to open up the barrel channel a little more┬  vs the composite stocks because the plastics in this application are not as stiff to begin with.┬  Probably the best bedding material is Devcon10110 it's very dark grey steel putty and like concrete,┬  it's not like the old agraglass which is softer and has a tendecy of a very very┬  slight amount of flex.┬  The down side with the Devcon it's grey so color matching a wood stock out,┬  but in your case with a black stock it's a good match.┬  ┬  ┬ Personally if money was no object I'd look at a Bell & Carlson Medalist full aluminum bedding block up into the barrel channel and make sure it's free floated and be done with it.┬  ┬ The other option is re-bedding,┬  either way will work, but load testing will almost always be necessary.

Once you remove pressure points in barrels such as you presently have and go to a free floated barrel they usually shoot different which could mean worst accuracy.┬  ┬ Free floating is generally a good thing and holds accuracy consistensy over the long haul, so long as you test loads and find a sweet spot.┬  ┬ A good friend finally drew a az antelope tag after 18-19 years of putting in and decided to free float a pretty decent shooting rem 700,┬  7mm mag and accuracy went in the dumper and he freaked out .┬  ┬ You just don't do that especially very close to the hunt date.┬  Got to give yourself a couple months at least prior to the hunts to work the bugs out.

If you do decide to free float the original stock make sure regardless what the gunsmith recommends┬  bed up 3 or 4 inches into the barrel channel, and have him open up the barrel channel foreward of the bedding to the muzzle end.┬  ┬ Which means probably at least 1/16 " around that barrel possibly a little more.┬  ┬  If you were using a composite stock you can get the barrel channel a little tighter, but remember both can flex especially in the forend and the heat we are in.┬  ┬ 
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 09:06:02 AM by zonie »

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2013, 04:16:41 PM »
I have one of the S1 stocks that came on my Vanguard and I replaced it with a Bell&Carlson Medalist and never looked back it incearsed the accuracy of the rifle and lowered the felt recoil in my 300Wby mag. For $240. you can't go wrong. They do come with the barrel pressure point which I left in when I first got it but have removed it since. I haven't had a chance to shoot it since I floated the barrel but the B&C stock made the groups shrink very noticeably. I wouldn't waste my time or money on the Tuppaware plastic stock.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 04:21:24 PM by Truck Driver »
TD

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2013, 09:01:24 PM »
From my experience, every rifle is different.  Some like to be free floated, some prefer to be bedded with a pressure point.  Temperature doesn't have much to do with it unless your stock is warping enough to touch a free-floated barrel.  In Wyoming, the problem is stocks that dry out up here.  I'm sure Bell & Carlson stocks are good ones - that is worth considering.  Most gunsmiths will work on factory stocks...it obviously voids your warranty, but most people don't care.  Wouldn't be much of gunsmithing industry if they didn't work on factory stocks.  Try having it free-floated (if not already) and you can always try having some pressure applied to your barrel later.  Some Mark V rifles like ~ 15 lbs of pressure applied to the barrel to shoot, but it works.  Pretty goofy to hang 15 lbs off the end of the barrel while the Acraglass dries...but whatever.  Just have to see what produces the best results - it can be a bit of an iterative process.   
JK

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2013, 05:30:37 PM »
thanks for the responses.

So it's a 270 cal.  and I do not reload yet.  I have found it shots federal Premium Nosler well.  130 gr.  It groups 1.5 or maybe a bit under off a rest at 100 but when it gets hot it goes high and right . I think I'm getting pressure one one side pushing it over
I know that if it shoots well cold and I obviously will hunt it cold, i'm good but I want to shoot more this summer and practice getting out at 500 yrd and I'd like to have an accurate rifle.  I like this rifle, I've shot a few deer at 400 and 350 and it's my go to.  But am I through good money after bad. Should I spend 300 on a stock and then more on bed and float for a $500 rifle?

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2013, 06:20:58 PM »
Do you mean a .270 Winchester or Weatherby Magnum?  I'm sure you could get smaller groups but you'd have to experiment with different ammo but if you're happy with inch and a half groups that's all that matters.  When you get into reloading you can really tighten up your groups.  One thing you can do is slow down on your shooting so you don't heat up the barrel so much.  I shoot a three shot group and will let the rifle cool for ten or fifteen minutes while I shoot another rifle so it has a chance to cool down. 
Nothing is better than a Weatherby, big bore magnum, or a Colt.

zonie

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Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2013, 02:16:33 AM »
Only you can make that decision.    A good rifle is like a good house it has to have a good foundation  to build on.   That could be taken a couple different ways a good foundation means a good rifle to begin with,  accurate loads or ammo the rifle likes, and the person behind the trigger.    What you might do is look on e-bay , gunbroker or ask someone on this site if they have a vanguard stock for sale  50 bucks or so you can experiment  glass bedding.  It's not hard and if you screw it up you aren't out a lot of money.   I agree with Chris best accuracy comes from handloading and again experimenting with different  bullet, powder, primer combinations .  No one said it was cheap or you get it right the first time.  The good thing about doing it yourself is you learn and appreciate what you accomplish when you're done.   It's not for everyone most of my friends don't re-load or would even attempt glass bedding because they don't really have an interest which is ok. 

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2013, 09:35:07 AM »
I have the same perspective as Ron, to bed a rifle it needs a good foundation. A good starting point to get a rifle more accurate would be to bed the action or recoil lug, freefloat the barrel, and a good trigger. Between this and handloading should accomplish what your after. Also, like Ron said, your either into it or your not. Theres guys that get there rifle and scope, one box of shells to site it in and check it once a year, another box to go hunting with. There rifle may shoot a 2" group a 1" high at 100 yds., they're set. They may clean there rifle after season, put it away till next fall. That's fine, not everything is for everyone. It takes time and money to be "into it ", same goes for anything. You put as much time and money into your hobby or what your into depending how passionate you are about it, or what you want out of it.
Freefloating, bedding, and a good trigger, which sounds like you have, is sorta the first steps or the basics for accurizing a rifle. Handloading is the start to accurizing your ammo. A Bell and Carlson Medalist is a good foundation for a bedded rifle. Its up to you whatever you do, whether or not its worth it.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 10:09:08 AM by ballistic »
Troy

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2017, 06:05:05 AM »
Some mentioned that their barrel likes 15lbs. of pressure. I would like to know how does one measure that?

Gary

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2017, 03:56:13 PM »
apache12, if you are near or visit the west Valley near Cabelas I'll bed a stock for you.  The black plastic stocks are essentially very poor candidates for bedding.  I bedded one for my son's friend and the bedding cracked in less than a year.  There are the Boyd's laminate stocks for less than $200 or the B&C for near $300.  Either would bed well and shrink your groups and hand loads will go one better.  PM me if you need help.
Scott
Scott Arizona

Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2017, 05:11:20 PM »
Can't beat that offer from Scott.
Roger
Faster horses,younger women,older whiskey,and more money.

danno50

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Re: free float my Vanguard ( not s2) rifle
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2017, 04:16:39 AM »
This thread is 4 years old and Apache 12 never responded with what he decided to do with his rifle. Lack of good cleaning causes accuracy problems also. Vanguards are a #2 contour and once sighted in, your cold barrel shot is the one that counts.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 02:17:17 PM by danno50 »
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