Spike Camp
Weatherby Nation => Around the Campfire (General Discussion) => Topic started by: PDub on August 07, 2017, 08:24:24 PM
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Hey guys,
Would sure appreciate some help here! I live up in Alberta, Canada. Last year, I bought a RC Accumark in 340 Wby. Range Certified target had a cluster of 3 shots overlapping each other using the 225g TSX and IMR 7828. I've tried multiple combinations (3 shot groups) from 88.5 to 92g in 0.5g increments with the only common result being 2 shots touching and the 3rd 1.0" to 1.25" away(several targets). A couple groups were 0.6" - 0.7" clusters, but not the 3 shot touching like the Range Certified target.
I've been reloading and shooting for many years with much success, so I'm confident in my reloading practices and my shooting techniques.
Another question: how much run from the lands should I give my bullet?
Any help is GREATLY appreciated.
-PDub
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PDub, I'm sure your probably letting your rifle cool all the way down while trying to shot your groups? The Range Certified models are shot indoors in a controlled environment, not sure how long they take to shot them. If you look half ways down the page I have a post on my new Arroyo 340, no plans on reloading for it until next year.
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PDub, I have the same rifle and my Range Certified target identifies the load as "B340225TTSX" which is the product code for Weatherby factory ammo using Barnes 225 grain TTSX bullets. I doubt that Weatherby factory ammo uses IMR 7828 powder or that the factory hand loads their test rounds so my first question would be why do you believe that IMR 7828 was the powder used in the test rounds for your rifle? If something other than IMR 7828 was used in the test rounds for your rifle, then your load development efforts have served to demonstrate that IMR 7828 will not produce the same results as Weatherby factory ammo. (I do not believe the powder used in Weatherby factory ammo is available commercially.)
With regards to how far off the lands you should seat the bullet, the Weatherby FAQ identifies the freebore on the 340 Mark V as 0.373 inch so you're not going to be able (and shouldn't attempt) to get anywhere close to the lands. As I understand it, the large freebore is necessary to maintain safe pressure levels. The Barnes web site identifies acceptable cartridge overall length which I would think would be a good starting point.
Good luck!
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I agree with the barrel temperature as the likely reason the third impact point being father away from the others. Since the first two are close, I think you're OK as far as hunting accuracy goes.
For cartridge length, my 257 and 300 Weatherby's have their best accuracy with bullets seated out as far as the magazine allows, regardless of bullet weight.
Good luck and keep us posted.
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unless something has changed powders used in factory Wby brand cartridges are blended and not for sale to the public ? Measure the same factory ammo that was tested in your rifle, and see what the coal is and start from there. Powder you might look at RL22 maybe MRP , can't say if Norma Wby ammo uses Federal primers ? Worst case scenario you could call or e-mail Norma and ask what the closest on the shelf powder for that particular factory ammo, they might say it's in between x or y, then do your load work up . Keep in mind rifles can change with age and environment, stock torque values may change a little along with other factors.
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PDub I had a experience with a 30-378 almost exactly what you mentioned
I wasn't giving enough time between shots was having different barrel temps once I discovered the problem letting completely cool off groups tighten up
I have to say was one of the worst caliber I had for doing that then again burning a lot of retumbo hope you find your problem lot good info posted here
Enjoy your day Mike
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I remember reading that MRP was very close to the blended powder used in Weatherby's factory loads.
With RL-26 and 180gn Hornady Interlocks I was able to get a decent shot group with MagnetoSpeed measured velocities @ 3224fps in my 300 Wby. That's close to the factory ammo listed @ 3250fps.
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maybe I'm reading your original post a little wrong. are you saying your rc rifle came with a test target using 7828 powder OR was this your load ? I doubt Wby techs are letting the barrel cool down I suspect they are shooting the test load one right after the other with a little time in between to scribble things down or other tasks if needed. throwing one flyer in pretty common it could be something as simple as the bullet seated cockeyed a little out of round, run it on a concentricity / bullet run out tool such as hornady then straighten bullet as needed on the tool, it's a possibility, I'm a firm believer in straightening bullet run out.
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like the others, i'm curious about the test target using 7828, I thought they only used factory ammo for their testing.
BTW, welcome to the nation. Which part of Alberta you in? I'm in the Lloydminster area. 8)
Rob
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Sorry guys,
Haven't been able to reply until today. Thanks for the feedback, a lot of information to play with. I'll try to address each question, so bear with me as i'd like to hear your feedback on my reply.
BlackBear3 - I'm pretty careful on letting the barrel cool, that being said, I'll fire 2 consecutive shots (or 3 on a lighter caliber or barrel) and let the barrel cool (to ambient) before continuing with load development.
Valkyrie - Sorry, my error on the 7828. I was loading with 7828 because the Barnes Manual calls 7828 the most accurate for the 340 Wby using the 225g TSX, my 300Wby and 300 Win absolutely LOVE the 7828. I was loading to the mag length, but will check where the lands engage the 225g TSX and refer back to the manual.
eford - It's not always the 3rd shot that is the stray, sometimes the 2nd (only shoot 3 shot groups for load development). I had this problem with my 7 STW built on a Mark V action; haven't solved that one yet.
zonie - my mistake, i was only loading with the 7828. I did buy a box of the 250g Wby factory ammo to use to break in my RC. Very disappointed as it shot 1.5" - 2.0" groups on break in.
- nope, you read it right; I wrote it wrong. 7828 is NOT listed on the RC paperwork. I do check concentricity of all my reloads, and will straighten all that measure 0.003" or greater. I'm a firm believer as well, especially when there is considerable freebore.
7mmweatherby - I HAVEN'T tried cooling to ambient after each shot. I'm careful to never let the barrel get hotter than "warm" on load development (2 consecutive shots, maybe 3 on a light caliber). Did you let each shot cool to ambient? I'll give that a try.
catskinner - Um, ya, no. My error, 7828 was my choice of reloading powder. I'm over here in Calgary. PM me, as I'm curious on your choices for 257 wby, 300 wby, 340 wby and 378 wby. I've no problem trading reload data.
I've attached a few of my targets I reference back at my bench. You'll see where 2 shots are close (or same hole) and the 3rd is 1.25" away. A couple others are closer, but for a RC i expected better and according to the Barnes Manual, the velocities are not as high as expected. I reference the Barnes Manual as I don't have a crony or magneto to measure velocity and it was Bang on with my 300 Wby and the 180g TSX (which I did crony a while back).
Thanks for the info guys and please comment back on anything you think I'm overlooking!
-PW
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There are a lot of possibilities and I hate to even speculate. You might use a search term in Google called "two grouping" or "double grouping". You should find some things to try or look at that way.
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Pdub, from a lot of reloading with 340 wbys the IMR7828 will work well at least with 200g bt and 250g partitions from my experience.
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I have noticed when you have one flyer like that, it is seating depth, I would take your best load and adjust seating depth. After that I would look at primers, although with magnum loads you don't have a lot of choices there
Good luck
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I would start playing with the seating depth's also and see what happens, maybe some one around here has some factory 225 tsx ammo that can give you the COAL of it, so you can use it as a baseline, or if you can get a box of factory 225 tsx ammo, you can see how it shoots for you in the rifle.
I have used a lot of 7828 over the years, and had pretty good results in most weatherby caliber's over the years. the last few years, I been using mostly H450 in most of my weatherby's, I got 24 pounds of it, in an estate auction, a few years back cheap, and my Scottish blood has worked up decent loads using it ::) ;D
Rob
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Hey guys,
Would sure appreciate some help here! I live up in Alberta, Canada. Last year, I bought a RC Accumark in 340 Wby. Range Certified target had a cluster of 3 shots overlapping each other using the 225g TSX and IMR 7828. I've tried multiple combinations (3 shot groups) from 88.5 to 92g in 0.5g increments with the only common result being 2 shots touching and the 3rd 1.0" to 1.25" away(several targets). A couple groups were 0.6" - 0.7" clusters, but not the 3 shot touching like the Range Certified target.
I've been reloading and shooting for many years with much success, so I'm confident in my reloading practices and my shooting techniques.
Another question: how much run from the lands should I give my bullet?
Any help is GREATLY appreciated.
-PDub
What is your COAL?
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PDub, the factory COAL for 340 225ttsx is 3.640.
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I swear by the 225gr TSX in my .340 WBY. My main load is with 86 grains of AR2213sc (Aussie powder) which is the same as H4831. I have also used 86 grains of RE19. My COAL is 3.700" with constant 1.00" or less groups. Velocity is right at 3000 fps.
I have used it with great success on Water buffalo, Banteng, Scrub bulls and pigs here in Australia. Plus Lion, lioness and assorted African plains game. I have found the 225gr TSX a much better performer than the 225gr TTSX and 250gr TSX on big game like water buffalo and scrub bulls.
My rifle did not like the 225gr TTSX with groups averaging 1.5" or greater.
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I swear by the 225gr TSX in my .340 WBY. My main load is with 86 grains of AR2213sc (Aussie powder) which is the same as H4831. I have also used 86 grains of RE19. My COAL is 3.700" with constant 1.00" or less groups. Velocity is right at 3000 fps.
I have used it with great success on Water buffalo, Banteng, Scrub bulls and pigs here in Australia. Plus Lion, lioness and assorted African plains game. I have found the 225gr TSX a much better performer than the 225gr TTSX and 250gr TSX on big game like water buffalo and scrub bulls.
My rifle did not like the 225gr TTSX with groups averaging 1.5" or greater.
What was the main performance difference between the TSX and the TTSX, besides group size.
I ask because the bull in my avatar was taken with the 225 TTSX bullet. But that was one shot and one set of conditions. You have taken several large frame animals with these bullets. Interested in your findings
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I found that the 225gr TTSX opened up to fast on the big critters I shoot. It would be great on the smaller thin skinned game like your Elk, deer and African plains game.
I just sold my 2 boxes of the 225gr TTSX to a mate that has some feral horses he needs to cull. They would be perfect for that size animal from any distance.
Then with the 225gr TSX I feel it doesn't open as fast and penetrates deeper than the TTSX on things like our water buffalo, banteng and scrub bulls that have thick hides and heavy bones.
I have only shot a couple of small buffalo with my .340 and if I was to hunt a big old bruiser of a animal I may step it up to the 250gr TSX.
I took that Lion in my avatar using the 225gr TSX. Hit him with two frontal chest shots at around 50 yards.He was dead on his feet after the 1st shot but hit him again to be sure. We recovered both projectiles under the skin of his back legs. They had blown all the petals of but had shattered one shoulder and caused a complete mess of his insides! Couldn't tell what was what in there lol
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Thanks for the info. You cant ask for more than what that bullet and caliber did on your Lion. That must have been very intense moments.
The 225 grain TTSX shot out of a 338 win mag took that elk in the shoulder as he was quartering toward me at 380 yards. Found the bullet just under the skin by the last rib on the off side. After cleaning it up, it weights 227 grains, there is a bone chip under one of the pedals. He never took a step
Thanks again for the info, it is always good to get other people's experiences so you can make an informed decision on bullet weight and type in the future
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Yes Mike you sure are right it was intense. I have had great hunting success with the 225gr TSX in my .340. If I could only have one rifle that would be it.
One of my favourite trophies is this nice bantang I took. He was side on no more than 30-40 yards away. That blood down his side is the entry wound and the exit was twice the size. He only ran 20 yards or so and piled up. The blood he spurted out was amazing! I'd never seen a blood trail so big before.
Yep it's fair to say I am in love with my .340 and the 225gr TSX :-* ;D
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Very nice
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I'll second the idea that if you're getting two together and one flyer, your best option is to adjust seating depth. And my suggestion is to go shorter, incrementally, until the group tightens.
I've had excellent success in my Weatherbys with IMR7828ssc, by the way. Good luck with your load developmemt.
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Thanks for the input guys, played around with seating depth and not much success. Had access to a crony and was rather disappointed with my velocity, so i'm going to "up" the load velocity and try again. One group with 2 shots through the same hole only gave me 2870fps, and to be honest, i was hopping to settle on something at least 3000fps. If it's not there, i'll take what shoots good and live with it.
Thx for the COAL BlackBear3. I actually did a ladder test with the 225g TTSX after i became frustrated with my results on the 225g TSX. Good comments on the TSX BB340. I'd be just as happy if only i could get my 340 to shoot.
Very interesting ladder test. I don't do these very often, but was confused with the results. My regular loads don't shoot this well. WTF???
Have a look:
-IMR 7828
-GM215M primers
-225g TTSX
-COAL of 3.740" (took lands at 4.113" and subtracted freebore of 0.373" for 340 wby)
Loaded the following charges:
-89.5
-90
-90.5
-91
-91.5
-92
-92.5
-93
Bullet impacts labeled with charge weight. No pressure signs throughout test. Wish my groups were as good as the 4 different charge weights...
So... what do you make of this?
-PW
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Having loaded Barnes bullets in numerous calibers, my best were always at their manuals suggested length and about midway on their loads. Having taken a 200lb. hog at 40 yards and observing the Barnes bullets performance on a tough animal at high velocity, I have ZERO questions on performance! :D
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Based on your ladder, I'd consider building 6rds at 90.5gr and see how they group. Any idea what your velocities were for these? Because you're going to want a pretty consistent velocity (which it appears you have in the 90-91gr range, based on the group precision) to ensure good groups across ranges and conditions.
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Based on your ladder, I'd consider building 6rds at 90.5gr and see how they group. Any idea what your velocities were for these? Because you're going to want a pretty consistent velocity (which it appears you have in the 90-91gr range, based on the group precision) to ensure good groups across ranges and conditions.
Hey Dubyam, I didnt see any pressure signs at 93g. What do you think of conducting a ladder test from 93g, moving upward in charge weight?
-pw
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No. You're already 2gr above book max from Barnes, and as far as I know, you don't know velocity on this ladder, which means you have very little on which to base your pressure assumptions. With pressure, no sign has to include a velocity measurement. Without it, what you're saying is your brass case integrity is high, and nothing more.
If you were at 89gr, I'd tell you to work up to the book max. I'd also admonish you to chrono the loads as it's the single measurable quantity which is directly demonstrative of pressure.
The ladder you ran gave you a node at acceptable, tested charge weights. Use it.
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Thanks dubyam, good advice.
I'll work on that 90.5g charge and see what comes out of that.