Target Scope Or Hunting Scope

[zonie]

The Millet is a tank for sure, but it holds a zero.  A friend has one and it's not what I would have choosen but it works.    I personally think the 222 is a little more accurate, but that's not to say a good 223 is inaccurate they can be as  accurate as the triple duce. A lot of it has to do with the rifle itself, but overall shorter range accuracy I have to give the nod to the 222.    There really wasn't to many calibers that could beat it until the 6mm ppc came along. 

The biggest problem with the 223 vs 5.56 x 45 is I wish they would make up there mind on how they want to chamber it and rifling twists.   Makes you wonder exactly what chamber they actually have ?    There are at least three current std chambers Saami 223,  5.56 US Nato GI , and 5.56 Nato FN,  the latter two are for AR-15/16 and SAWs.
 
Then there are Wylde , Fulton, and a few match chambers to muttle up things, mostly you would see these on AR's.   Basically don't shoot Nato in a commercial 223 chamber  the leades are different and chamber pressures will rise.

[zonie]

Griz,  A side note Sako and Tikka still chamber the 222,  generally both are pretty accurate.   Rifling twist are usually 1 :12 to 1:14 in the 222.

Rifling twists in the 223 currently are bullet specific.   Remington 1:9 & 1:12,  Sako-Tikka 1:8 & 1:12,  Ruger 1:9, Savage 1:9 & 1:7.    those are just the ones looked up and  wasn't  going to look all of them up this was just a sampling.

To get your 223 shooting it's best it's going to take a little time and testing,  I'm sure you will get it down to at least 1/2 " without too much problems.   Look at bedding if you can't get it down, after you ran thru a lot of ammo testing.   I'm not sure if yours is free floated or not, but in this type of rifle I would look at floating the barrel.  Anyplace it's touching in the channel forward of the receiver a couple inches  to the forend is going to cause it to walk , mainly because you are getting the barrel  hot. 

[zonie]

Griz :  I forgot to add the best groups out of the AR  and the Ruger 77,   I have in 223  & 5.56 have been with plain jane Hornady 55 gr SP # 2265,   and either Ramshot Tac or BLC2 .  OAL 2.200 with CCI, Win & Wolf primers.   Yes primers can make a difference and that's something I would try.    That AR is a half inch shooter  when I do my part with Tac & Wolf primers..   CCI's and Win  aren't bad either.  The Ruger is an easy 3/4" shooter, but I haven't played with it enough to really get it down,  I have too much fun plinking with the AR.    I don't care for the scope too much on the Ruger and it's a Leupold VX2 3x9,  for some reason it's just not nearly as clear as my other Leo's.   

[grizzly340]

Thanks Zonie
Your right to give it A fair shake I will have to do some tinkering for shure. I think I will start with the last of my H335 the book load in Nosler #5 says its the most accurate load But it sure wasnt in my last 223 wich was A 700 BDL Std. barrel.then sence both you and chip like ths BLC-2 I will give it A try. I read it is A dirty powder. But it cant be anyworse than RL-15 I have A pile of patches when Im done cleaning my 22-250. I actualy thought hoppe and outers came up with patches that dont pick up dirt as well just to sell more. As I allways buy 22 size patches to hard to cut.

[zonie]

Griz :   The 223 is one of those small calibers where primers can really make a difference due to primers burning rates.   To save yourself some bucks go buy one pack of each primer cci, fed, rem, win,  and wolf if you can find them.  Repeat find Wolf is you can find them,  some some people will say oh there Wolf and junk not true they are very hot and extremely consistant in the sm rifle size, and probably one of the reasons I'm getting best groups with ball powders. 

Now I don't always use the same cases generally I will use win cases in the Ruger and WCC-84 military in the AR mainly because I have buckets of it.  Nothing wrong with the other brands as long as you use the same brass and don't mix between rifles,  keep it seperate.   Use all the correct loading techniques and trim lengths.   I do crimp the 223's  with a Lee collet crimp,  probably not needed but I like it for feeding in the AR so I just do it in the ruger also.
 
Take one specific load and strictly test primers.  I think you will be surprised in accuracy difference just by changing the primer.  I see this more in smaller cases like the 223, but it does carry over to the large mags.

H-335 is OK it's not my favorite even though a lot has been written on it and several friends use it mostly not to their liking once they switched to a few other powders.  I really like Ramshot Tac  & BLC2 as do a couple friends,   yes they are ball powders with either Wolf or CCI.   Best groups were TAC & Wolf.    Followed by Tac- CCI,   BLC2 -CCI,   I have also had good luck with IMR & H-4895,   Varget was so-so.

What I would do if you have any H-335 left is get yourself some Hornady 50-55's whichever,  flatbase at these  shorter ranges almost always shoot better.  Pick an oal like 2.200 these are very short bullets so there isn't a lot of leeway,   take 5 junker rounds to foul the barrel and load up all these different primers  at one grain under max and shoot them.   Yes I know you are suppose to work up but there ain't a whole lot of difference in these small cases,  if you don't feel comfortable split the difference between high & low powder charge.   Don't clean the rifle just shoot them, clean it later when you get home.  Keep them seperated in 5 or so different zip-lock bag and marked with load & primer type for when you get home to look carefully at cases & primers.  Take your target and bring it home  also, and put it in a folder for later reference with environmental conditions , wind , temp,  date, load data, oal, volocity,  rifle type,  etc.  You will be surprised how many times you will come back to that target later.   Normally what I do is I have a 2" square stencil made up and mark 9 squares on the back of a plain target with a heavy sharpe.   I do use other lined stencils whichever you can see the best and be the most precise will work.

What his is going to tell you is does one primer work over the others with a specific powder. You may luck out and find a really decent load to fine tune charge weights and seating depth later.  If none work or  are so-so switch powders and try it again with different primers.  I'll bet by the time you get to that last bullet  and used a couple powders & primers you will have a pretty good load  or two that stands out to fine tune.   

I'm not one of these that will sit there and shoot every five minutes,  I shoot one right after the other for a specific test  usually 5 rounds,  I walk down and look at the target, and let the rifle cool down.   One reason I want to see if it's walking shots especially on a new rifle.   20 shot at 4 targets in 30 minutes test it like you would shoot a match.  I really think you can get this rifle down without a whole lot of testing, unless you run into a bedding problem.  Anyway good luck and keep us posted on how it shoots.     Ron

[grizzly340]

Wow Ron Thanks All good stuff. And I will locate some Hornady 50 gr. flat base bullets &  wolf primers I think I have remington and cci and I will do this test sounds Like A real time saver and get some good data all at the same time. Here in MI its sight in days at my club for the big Nov.15th deer opener so by thanksgiving I will post some targets if any are worth A hoot. and I think your right I should find something thats stands out. Then I will have to deside if I want to tip my hand in dec. or wait till next march when varmint leauge starts. Cause I think were going to raise the bar A mite.

[zonie]

Griz,  Realistically if you have a good scope, barrel not totally fouled,   it's bedded right, careful fine tuning and matching your brass, you should be able to shoot 1/2 or better 5 shots.   You may very well go thru a couple different bullets also , but in the long run keeping good records and time at the range it's very doable unless the rifle is a hunk which I doubt.   I really wouldn't worry about velocities too much at 100 yds.    About the only time I chronograph anymore is if I want to push them as hard as I can and  still get reasonable accuracy for hunting longer ranges.  For testing new rifles I'll chronograph  to give me a sort of baseline to expect.   The one thing I do and it does cost money I will test 5 or 6 different bullets & powders.  I hate to say it but some rifles just don't like certain bullets or combinations.  In other words I wouldn't give up on a rifle because it won't shoot one bullet.   Might cost me a couple hundred bucks by the time I'm done, but at least it will shoot as good as it can.  The good part is I have a bunch of different bullets and powders laying around  so the initial cost doesn't bite so bad as it use to.   

[grizzly340]

Yes me to Ron I have cans of powder that just sit if they dont preform. But I must say I would have never tried either of the powders you mentioned with out this conversation. I have A lot of once fired remington UMC brass is that any good?

[zonie]

Griz,   sure why not,  The only reason I use the Win and WCC is I have more of it than other brands, basically I have 5 gallon buckets of it.  the WCC is military and will standup to the AR cycling it actually works real well in bolt guns,   just have to de-crimp.   The one thing you might want to do and I'm sure you know this is just bump the shoulder when sizing.  You do not have to full length size as long as they chamber easily.  If you get bolt resistance then turn the die down a little and keep them all trimmed the same length.   It's not a finiky round to load.  I really enjoy shooting the 223's and it's a great varmit-prairie dog round.  I won't use fmj's because we are not allowed for hunting.  Some of these little Speer  52 grain HP's shoot very well something keep in mind.     I was leary about Ramshot powders also, but after using TAC and MAG they ain't bad and usually less expensive.  Made in Belgium.  BLC2 has been around for a long time and I sometimes use it in the 308.  Don't discount either of the 4895's  Imr or H  can shoot very well in the 223.  The rifle is going to tell you what it like's,  the bad part is you have to go play with them.  I wish I could tell you use this and this, but it doesn't work that way. 

[coreydelong]

52g Speer HP (non-boat tailed) are the best shooting bullets in both my .223's. 26g of Varget at 2.210" and don't look back. Shorten 'em up to 2.200" if ya want a tad more velocity. I use Wolf, or CCI primers FWIW.

I've spent hours and hundreds of dollars trying to get something that will touch those Speer's- 52g SMK's, 62g 855's, 68g Hornady, 69g SMK's and many 55g bullets, but no luck..... powders- 748, BL-C2, H322, H335, but Varget takes the cake with that 52g Speer.

Go make some 5 leaf clovers

[grizzly340]

Thanks Guys The only thing wrong with doing the research is that it will have to be done during the MIchigan winter other than that its all Play to me. And I will have to do alot of it on my belly that little up hill shooting at targets slightly above you makes A diffrence. Because our targets have to hang from A wire but must be above the wood to keep the burm from slidding so zeroing from the bench dosent work.

[grizzly340]

Hi Ron Was able to get A lb. of Tac I was happy to find it at Williams because there were only 4 places in the state that were sapost to carry it and they were not one of them. But of course I bought small mag. cci primers getting old didnt see the little red magnum above the big white small rifle.But anyway im eager to work up A couple of loads for the primer / powder test.

[zonie]

Griz,   Tac wasn't too hard to find in my area,   the Mag & hunter I had to special order.   Try it out and see what you think,  I like it a lot in my 223's.   Something you just have to play with.   Let us know how it shoots. 

[grizzly340]

Well My 1st. Load Attempt was A little Dissapointing 7/8" using 24.5 Grs. of TAC and 50 gr. Hornady V max Bullets with CCI Primmers. I know the Rifle will do better and am eager to work up A couple different loadsBut I did like the Millet scope specaly the side focus but theres still know way its staying on the Rifle I just have to have my Leupolds.   

[ballistic]

Grizz, I love my Leupolds to, just cant get myself to get anything else even though theres alot of good products out there.
Ive been using Benchmark in my .222 with fed. 205's. I was shooting 50 gr. v max's, but the 40 v max's group nicer, getting 3300 fps out of them. I havent done anything with a .223, I like my 22.250...222 combo.
In my 22.250's I use varget, with 53 gr. hornady match hollow pts. in my Vanguard, and IMR 4064 in with 60 gr. bergers in my remington. The remington has a 1-12" twist though. Use fed 210's in both.
That VX-ll 6-18 with AO with a fine duplex or fine crosshair would make a nice target scope